Kill Tally

[19GT-AWD]

I don't think a roll race would start at 5mph either or anywhere in 1st gear for that matter.

A "roll" race is what is (*it) says, "rolling" and not beginning from a standing start.

As such, it can occur from any mph and removes whatever potential launch specific biases might exist.

Staged "roll" races often have little to no bearing on reality (i.e. "going from a mph that suits one car and not the other", "auto vs. manual trans", etc.)

Not to mention C&D defines it as a "rolling start" to begin with.

 

[ScottM]

I always thought roll racing was where while you're driving down the highway/street and someone honks the horn to go (of course you're both understanding that it's a race)? I wouldn't think roll racing would be the "L.A. stop sign stop" kinda roll racing. BUT...I guess if you're not stopped and you're "rolling" it fits the description, I suppose.

 

[Kamauxx]

I always thought roll racing was where while you're driving down the highway/street and someone honks the horn to go (of course you're both understanding that it's a race)? I wouldn't think roll racing would be the "L.A. stop sign stop" kinda roll racing. BUT...I guess if you're not stopped and you're "rolling" it fits the description, I suppose.

You're correct. What he's thinking of is a rolling start (5mph start, one foot roll-out, whatever you call it), which some auto reviewers use for 0-60 testing.

A race starting in 1st gear at 5mph doesn't eliminate the potential traction limits of one car vs another. A roll race starting at 50mph in 2nd gear will have a greater impact on traction issues.

 

[19GT-AWD]

You're correct. What he's thinking of is a rolling start (5mph start, one foot roll-out, whatever you call it), which some auto reviewers use for 0-60 testing.

A race starting in 1st gear at 5mph doesn't eliminate the potential traction limits of one car vs another. A roll race starting at 50mph in 2nd gear will have a greater impact on traction issues.

That is incorrect. A rolling start can not excluded from being a "roll race".

A 1st gear 5 mph roll race eliminates potential traction problems in most situations. But note that roll races at greater speeds guarantee nothing. For example, Dodge Hellcats produce wheel spin at virtually any speed below 100 mph and are therefore rendered worthless for comparisons.

 

[ZyroXZ2]

I guess we all seem to have varying definitions of roll races. I had always thought a roll race was based on traction: the concept of a roll race is to eliminate launch/driver capabilities and traction issues to simply compare or race the power levels of two cars. One car getting a perfect launch can entirely change the outcome, so by taking that out, a roll race is purely a measure of power versus power.

Thus, a couple 1000HP cars would start a roll race at 100MPH, while a low powered Civic might start at 5MPH. I never saw roll racing as a defined speed to start at, but rather a common speed at which point neither driver is doing anything more than flooring it and shifting.

 

[Kamauxx]

I guess we all seem to have varying definitions of roll races.

No, it seems with the exception of one person we all agree.

 

[ZyroXZ2]

No, it seems with the exception of one person we all agree.

I dunno what posts you're reading, but I see some talking about a roll out, some people talking about highway racing, and some people specifying a gear or set speed, lol... All I know about roll racing is that you have to be going fast enough to not have traction issues (which if you want to play semantics, everyone seems to agree on this point despite knowing power levels make defining said "fast enough" a variable).

 

[ScottM]

It kind of looks like we've defined things more clearly. Roll racing is determined by the participants as far as speed and such. Rolling start is "rolling" and then punching it.

 

[StungBlueGT2]

To add to ScottM’s correct explanation, a simple way to clarify the difference between “roll racing” and a “rolling start” is the amount of throttle & RPM youre using at the beginning.

A “rolling start” uses no throttle input and begins rolling at idle. Gas pedal is not being used initially and RPMs are around 1k.

An official “roll race” is using the gas pedal to hold a certain RPM & speed at which you start racing. The race starts at part or close to full throttle & RPM is usually held at the bottom of each cars HP curve(depends on the redline but usually between 3-5k RPM.)

Hope this helps clarify and eliminate the semantics involved in the different wordings, or measurements.

 

[ZyroXZ2]

To add to ScottM’s correct explanation, a simple way to clarify the difference between “roll racing” and a “rolling start” is the amount of throttle & RPM youre using at the beginning.

A “rolling start” uses no throttle input and begins rolling at idle. Gas pedal is not being used initially and RPMs are around 1k.

An official “roll race” is using the gas pedal to hold a certain RPM & speed at which you start racing. The race starts at part or close to full throttle & RPM is usually held at the bottom of each cars HP curve(depends on the redline but usually between 3-5k RPM.)

Hope this helps clarify and eliminate the semantics involved in the different wordings, or measurements.

Wait, that actually makes it worse. An 8-speed and a 4-speed will be at different RPMs at certain speeds due to being in different gears, and different types of engines have different powerbands making an equal RPM race completely and utterly disadvantageous to one car or the other. A rolling start is, like in track racing, everyone at a set maximum speed limit, and everyone gets on the gas once they pass the start line. This is as close to roll racing as it goes: two people line up; match their speed; someone honks horns as a "go" signal or "start line" if you will.

Also, I've never heard of a rolling start where I simply let off the brake and wait to go: every car moves at a different speed at idle RPMs due to a large variance in weight and transmission design/clutch slip. If you're referring to a "rolling start" as "rollout", that's entirely unrelated: that's just the distance your car "rolls" before triggering the start timer at a drag strip, lol

Roll racing, to me in general, is simply eliminating traction issues and/or launch errors/control so people can more accurately measure power against power. Everything else is just factors of variables in cars.

 

[ScottM]

Usually when I roll race I demand each of us hold at 50, eat a ham sandwhich from their left hand, once said sandwhich is fully eaten then they can smash the pedal. In other words, he who eats faster has the upper left hand!! I joke. I do think at this point it is more about semantics (what type of ham, mustard or mayo, toasted or untoasted, etc) then anything. BUT...good discussion!

 

[StungBlueGT2]

Wait, that actually makes it worse. An 8-speed and a 4-speed will be at different RPMs at certain speeds due to being in different gears, and different types of engines have different powerbands making an equal RPM race completely and utterly disadvantageous to one car or the other. A rolling start is, like in track racing, everyone at a set maximum speed limit, and everyone gets on the gas once they pass the start line. This is as close to roll racing as it goes: two people line up; match their speed; someone honks horns as a "go" signal or "start line" if you will.

Also, I've never heard of a rolling start where I simply let off the brake and wait to go: every car moves at a different speed at idle RPMs due to a large variance in weight and transmission design/clutch slip. If you're referring to a "rolling start" as "rollout", that's entirely unrelated: that's just the distance your car "rolls" before triggering the start timer at a drag strip, lol

Roll racing, to me in general, is simply eliminating traction issues and/or launch errors/control so people can more accurately measure power against power. Everything else is just factors of variables in cars.

Lol. Either you’re deliberately trying to make this more complicated, or you didn’t read my whole post and are missing the point. I’ll try to simplify it even more for you...

I never said they have to match RPMs, hence the “RPM is held at the bottom of EACH cars HP curve”

Yes they both start at the same MPH, but no they don’t wait to hit the gas until the start of the race. As I said, they are both holding a certain, but likely different RPM, using pedal/throttle input(close to full) to maintain that same speed while staying just under the HP curve. Then at the “honk” or “starting line & mph” they floor the pedal and continue the roll race.

Next, a “rolling start” by definition is simply rolling before the start which means idle or no throttle input until like Kaumaxx said, 5mph, 1ft rollout or whatever you want to call it. But completely different than roll racing which was my point in the first place.

And using your description of the track timer related “rollout” just confirms my explanation even further. The distance traveled between the first light and second light, about 12”, happens when the car is staging, again at idle or no throttle to avoid passing the lights.

To summarize, roll racing is used to eliminate traction issues by racing at a certain speed. This is achieved by holding the gas pedal at a certain input usually close to full throttle to maintain speed, and each car adjusts RPM/gears to maximize its power at the beginning of the HP curve at the agreed on MPH. Those parameters do not happen at 5mph, and rarely happen below 20mph or 2nd gear at the minimum. Which is why the initial explanation of a 5-180mph “roll race” and reason for the semantics debate, is ridiculous.

I hope this is easier for everyone to understand and think this horse has been beaten enough... Anyone have a real race so we can move on from this hypothetical nonsense? Please share and back to our original programming.

Edit:Sorry 12in not 12ft

 

[19GT-AWD]

I guess we all seem to have varying definitions of roll races ...

Nay, it appears with the exclusion of one individual we all concur.

I dunno what posts you're reading ...

Me neither. lol

...Roll racing, to me in general, is simply eliminating traction issues and/or launch errors/control so people can more accurately measure power against power. Everything else is just factors of variables in cars.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Give The Man A Cigar!

What a breath of fresh air to observe when someone understands a basic concept.

This "controversy" has run it's course, I'm out until we get back on topic ...

 

[ZyroXZ2]

Lol. Either you’re deliberately trying to make this more complicated, or you didn’t read my whole post and are missing the point. I’ll try to simplify it even more for you...

I never said they have to match RPMs, hence the “RPM is held at the bottom of EACH cars HP curve”

Yes they both start at the same MPH, but no they don’t wait to hit the gas until the start of the race. As I said, they are both holding a certain, but likely different RPM, using pedal/throttle input(close to full) to maintain that same speed while staying just under the HP curve. Then at the “honk” or “starting line & mph” they floor the pedal and continue the roll race.

Next, a “rolling start” by definition is simply rolling before the start which means idle or no throttle input until like Kaumaxx said, 5mph, 1ft rollout or whatever you want to call it. But completely different than roll racing which was my point in the first place.

And using your description of the track timer related “rollout” just confirms my explanation even further. The distance traveled between the first light and second light, about 12ft, happens when the car is staging, again at idle or no throttle to avoid passing the lights.

To summarize, roll racing is used to eliminate traction issues by racing at a certain speed. This is achieved by holding the gas pedal at a certain input usually close to full throttle to maintain speed, and each car adjusts RPM/gears to maximize its power at the beginning of the HP curve at the agreed on MPH. Those parameters do not happen at 5mph, and rarely happen below 20mph or 2nd gear at the minimum. Which is why the initial explanation of a 5-180mph “roll race” and reason for the semantics debate, is ridiculous.

I hope this is easier for everyone to understand and think this horse has been beaten enough... Anyone have a real race so we can move on from this hypothetical nonsense? Please share and back to our original programming.

... I just can't, lol

Though, I don't know if you've been drag racing, but you might have misunderstood the track timer versus staging. Rollout is not at all what you're talking about, still... (also, the distance between the two staging lights is absolutely not 12ft, not even close, haha): it's the time your car takes between when you've launched and when you actually trip the timer, aka "reaction time". It's why if you bracket race, you go on the third yellow because you'll trip the timer by the time physics happens and the car actually launches. It's also why there's "deep" staging in which you try to get as far up as possible without leaving the first staging line: that 1"-2" difference can make it easier to achieve 0s reaction times. I've actually achieved the coveted 0.00s reaction time I regret not having saved the slips because no one believed me...

And technically, we're not off topic entirely: most (if not all) of our racing kills are drag racing, soooo...

 

[falanger]

Broke my own rule and took on one of the pony cars. I can confirm a tuned GT with bolt ons makes quick work of 2018+ manual mustang gt with bolt ons from a dig. I'm curious now to see how things would go against an auto GT, with that quick shifting 10 speed.

 

[falanger]

Early in the thread someone mentioned the ricer fly-by; I was on the receiving end of that earlier. Had no idea people legitimately do that. And to make it even more amusing, it was coincidentally THE most "riced" vehicle offered right now, the civic type-r (no offense type r fans).

Seems to me if one is confident in one's ride, one wouldn't fly-by in traffic, only to refuse to line up down the road when the road ahead is absolutely clear and free of traffic, and then make a quick turn when caught at a redlight...

 

[Ozstung]

While I remember back in April coming back from a weekend away with 3 other Stingees on a straight bit of road and doing about 115km/h, a whip snake tried to cross the road, I tried to miss it but I got it. It was a long bugger too.

Does this qualify as Kill tally?

 

[AV8R]

While I remember back in April coming back from a weekend away with 3 other Stingees on a straight bit of road and doing about 115km/h, a whip snake tried to cross the road, I tried to miss it but I got it. It was a long bugger too.

Does this qualify as Kill tally?

Don’t know did you eat it after? Lol

 

[Ozstung]

Don’t know did you eat it after? Lol

It flew back and I believe @Stinger GT SS may have got a piece of it to . So it would have been rather nicely tenderised.

 

[Helo58]

So, I went to see some "organized" roll-racing at ZMAX dragway in Charlotte this evening. After about 10 minutes I could tell I was going to be disappointed because the whole thing seemed cheesy. It was my first time seeing/experiencing this and here is what I can report:

1) Cars line up side by side as far back from the starting line as possible in a straight line. In this case, about 50-60 yards.
2) There is some kind of draw for left and right lanes (chosen by chance) to prevent bias or someone always "pacing" races.
3) The left car is considered the pace car and the right side must pace his start by staying even with the left car.
4) Once the "tree" operator "greens lights" the cars, they can begin rolling.
5) They begin to roll and the pace car cannot exceed 40mph and the right car can't pass the left car prior to the start.
6) Once the left car trips the staging lights, both cars go full throttle down the 1/4 mile.

I saw no Stingers there which was probably a good thing considering the heavyweight company in attendance. A few exotics but mostly twin-turboed or supercharged pony cars along with a good mix of "Evil" Dodges, GTRs, Corvettes, and Cadillacs (Vs). The 140mph and 150mph breakout classes had the most cars running which would have limited the Stinger's chances of adding to the Kill Tally. There were some brutally fast cars that were trapping 170-180. There were also some slower and stock cars that showed up for the test-n-tune portion. Lots of nitrous, alcohol blends, and VHT perfuming the air, so that wasn't bad.

My take-away as a guy who loves traditional drag-racing was that the whole affair was pretty lame. The starts were often botched where the right side left first, both cars exceeded 40mph, or one car really lagged behind the other at the start regardless of side. It was really kind of boring without the launch, the shifting, and the timing aspect of things. Once the cars crossed the finish line, there was really no sense of a "legitimate" victory given how biased and hokey the starting rules are even though the lights indicated a winning side. The only enjoyable races were where someone left late and the walked down the other car without "breaking out." At these horsepower levels, the roll racing didn't help completely with the traction levels. Some were still spinning at the 1/8th mark. Other than that, it was pretty "Meh..."