3.3TT Huge difference in OEM rims vs Enkeis at track day?

[Rev_Night]

Hey peeps,

I was talking with a few people in the general forum about this, but I wanted to see what your all opinions would be in this specific forum. I am in the market for new rims/summers that are only to be used on the track (and to/fro highway) about 2x a year. A new set of Enkies/Forgestars weigh about 18lbs but would cost me $1400 -- not including the cost of PS4 tires. Meanwhile, I see for sale threads about the stock rims (225/255) that weigh ~30lbs each but come with the PS4s, all for like $700-$1200.

For my purposes, again 2x a year track day with friends, is there really going to be a huge and noticeable difference in the rim weights? I have a 2019 Kia Stinger GT AWD

thanks peeps

edit: Other mods (current and future) will be Eibach sways/springs, maybe chassis struts, better brake pads, 5.1 fluid, SS lines, CAI and big mouth

 

[Dan00Hawk]

Not many people test the actual difference with lighter or heavier wheels on acceleration, power, and handling, so here's some articles that did:

Are lighter wheels really better?

We always hear that lightweight wheels are better, but do they actually make you go faster on track?

grassrootsmotorsports.com

Effects of Upsized Wheels and Tires Tested

Plus-Size Models: Testing the performance effects of upsizing wheels and tires.

www.caranddriver.com

Light Wheels Vs Heavy Wheels - Wheel Tech - Comparison - Car Craft

We find out if lighter wheels can shave time of your quarter mile slips. Find all the details inside Car Craft Magazine.

www.motortrend.com

Effects of Upsized Wheels and Tires Tested

Plus-Size Models: Testing the performance effects of upsizing wheels and tires.

www.caranddriver.com

Dyno Runs - The effects of wheel/tire weights on wheel horsepower - MBWorld.org Forums

C63 AMG (W204) - Dyno Runs - The effects of wheel/tire weights on wheel horsepower - Test: Davenport Motorsports (www.davenportmotorsports.com) of Canada, wanted to see the dyno effects of running different wheels on cars. They took a factory 2012 Camaro SS and ran 3 dyno runs. They ran the...

mbworld.org

Colin Chapman: "Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere.”

 

[Rev_Night]

The data for all of those reports was like no more than .5 sec improvement in 0-60. That doesnt exactly scream 'mandatory' to me. From 9secs to 8.6, thats a 5% improvement.

For lap time, the lighter wheels had 1 second improvement.

I'm not really seeing numbers worth $1400 here

 

[MerlintheMad]

I am a novice at performance mod differences, but from what I've read rolling weight makes little or no difference on a circuit, but does make noticeable difference accelerating. So, scrutinizing your lap times for the purpose of shaving off tenths or even hundredths of a second, of course you'd be doing everything you can come up with to move in that direction.

As for weekend warrior stuff, no, a lighter wheel isn't going to be noticeable to you unless you're the quality of driver of a Randy Pobst.

The main difference that you or even I will feel is tires. And PS4(S) is about as good as they get. If it were me buying a separate set of track days wheels (and tires too, cool) I'd go for that OE set; that's a great price (one OEM wheel cost $630 when I priced them back in 2018).

 

[Rev_Night]

I'm def getting summers, its just a question on whether or not the Enkies were required. It is clear they are not.

Curious, while we are on the subject, and we know I am a weekend warrior, is there an appreciable difference between the PS4s and the Yokohama V601s? Even at full price, the V601s are like half the price of the PS4s

 

[MerlintheMad]

Michelins are the cat's whiskers of summer tires. Chinese tires will feel good but lose out as the tread wears down; that I take as wisdom from those who know (i.e. read it on here, many times, so it must be true).

 

[BadTrainDriver]

Michelins are the cat's whiskers of summer tires. Chinese tires will feel good but lose out as the tread wears down; that I take as wisdom from those who know (i.e. read it on here, many times, so it must be true).

One thing I hate is when people talk out their ass about something they know nothing about...

The Yokohama V601 is made in Japan, and has been proven to be an excellent track tire.

The Yokohama ADVAN Apex V601: A Max-Performance Summer Tire Designed

While Yokohama’s performance tires have been popular with enthusiasts for decades, its new ADVAN Apex V601, a max-performance summer model, breaks ground.

grassrootsmotorsports.com

 

[Dan00Hawk]

For road racing and autocross, improving your driving ability and using stickier tires are the biggest things that will improve lap times. Of course, as one gets better and more involved, upgrading other components like brakes and suspension also pay dividends.

I take the approach that if I'm going to be changing out wheels and tires anyway (I like to use OEM wheels as a dedicated winter setup), I might as well go with a set that is lighter weight since virtually the only downside is to your budget.

 

[Rev_Night]

in the past 4 months my wife and I have bought a house and had a kid. So yes, I do somewhat have a budget. In fact in my mod list I even have parenthesis for Year 1, Year 2 etc...

 

[RogueIV]

As said before, the best improvement you can make is seat time. Wheel weight isn't something weekend warriors are really going to notice. Just get some good tires and hit the track.

 

[turboAWD]

One thing I hate is when people talk out their ass about something they know nothing about...

The Yokohama V601 is made in Japan, and has been proven to be an excellent track tire.

The Yokohama ADVAN Apex V601: A Max-Performance Summer Tire Designed

While Yokohama’s performance tires have been popular with enthusiasts for decades, its new ADVAN Apex V601, a max-performance summer model, breaks ground.

grassrootsmotorsports.com

Sorry, but that basically reads like a paid advertisement. It doesn't give any numbers, just "we built it for the US" marketing speak.

This says the V601 is a significant step lower than the PS4, especially if you ever encounter rain.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=248

If I was buying a set of tires mostly for the track, I'd avoid the V601 based on those numbers. In fact, that's what I did - I bought 18" Enkeis + PS4s

Edit: if I was looking at set of budget tires for the track, I would probably consider FK510s and G-Max RS.

 

[StingertimeNC]

If you were blindfolded, and you had a set of wheels that weigh 19 lbs, and a set that weigh 34 lbs each, and you were lapping on a track at 100mph, there's no way in hell you could tell the difference unless maybe if you were a professional race car driver or somethin. But going to the track a couple times a year, don't worry about it. The key is driving skill and tires. Like some have mentioned, if there's a way to afford it, a set of rims you like the looks of, with Summer tires, and the OEM's with all season tires is the best option. Don't get caught up worrying about which wheel, just get something you like, can afford and that's a reputable brand. I mentioned this on the other thread, I have Vossen's, stayed with 19" so I could reduce the weight to some degree, but still look great too. Shaved off about 8lbs a wheel and was able to go an inch wider in the rear and 1/2 inch wider in the front. Best of both worlds. Looks, saved some weight, and added some extra rubber for the track. Enkei's are cheaper I'm sure, and lighter, but I wanted something that looks great when I'm not at the track too. Point is, don't overthink it!

 

[RogueIV]

Edit: if I was looking at set of budget tires for the track, I would probably consider FK510s and G-Max RS.

The General G-Max RS really are a great bargain. I haven't put this particular car or tires on the track yet but they feel great out in the back road twisties and have been pretty good in the ridiculous amount of rain we've got over summer here in the North East.

 

[MerlintheMad]

One thing I hate is when people talk out their ass about something they know nothing about...

It is catching, isn't it? So I F'ed up the brand name association: I said CHINESE tires, and you left that out of your objectionable and very brief rant. How about the UHP Firestone Firehawk Indy 500? Are you going to claim that it feels as sticky as a Michelin PS4S with half the tread gone? Can I mention that I've read "No to that" on here a bunch of times without talking out my keister? I read what people say, from their experience, and sometimes I share that with attribution. Yokohama, Japanese, got it.

 

[RM7]

Track or Strip?

At the track, hell yes, you'd notice a difference. Lighter and smaller wheels with low profile tires for stiff sidewalls is one of the best upgrades you can do for the track. To make this substantial, you really should move down to 18s, go for something nice and wide like 255, get the lightest wheels you can that will fit the rubber. You notice this almost everywhere, accelerating, changing direction (and the car responding, rather than fighting the change), etc. The downside with this is the cost and something that may not work optimally for the street, depending on the size.

I change out my 295/305 20" wheels to 255 19s on my SS 1LE during winter. I typically don't drive it much in winter, but I have the winter set so I can. Holy crap it dramatically changes the feel with that loss of rotating weight. I notice this immediately as soon as I change my wheels and go drive.



Strip, probably marginal. It's still there...but you are only accelerating once on a pass...vs. over and over again at the track, the weight savings isn't huge.

 

[RM7]

But I'll also add this, if the car isn't much of a track car to start with, even changing out the wheels may not be as dramatic, like if steering sucks, it's not going to fix steering, if suspension sucks, it's not going to fix suspension, etc. The wheelbase of these cars isn't great for the track, so you will be fighting that a bit.

 

[Rev_Night]

So those tirerack reviews were very helpful. I appreciate forum posts, because obviously you all have more experience than me, but objective, numbers driven 3rd party review sites really are the best.

Review 1: Falken Azenis FK510, General G-MAX RS, Sumitomo HTR Z5, Yokohama ADVAN Fleva V701

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=247

Review 2: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, Pirelli P Zero (PZ4), Yokohama ADVAN Apex V601

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=248

I cannot stress enough that I find Wet performance to be very important. These HPDE sessions are rain or shine, and no refunds are given. So if I am out on the track, or driving to the track, and the heavens open up, well tough shit buddy keep on truckin. Also, this stinger is my daily driver and my family sedan. I am more concerned about having fun and not crashing my car than creating a 600hp monster.

As such, it was very helpful that these reviews included not only wet performance, but raw performance. Tire A gets a 8.6, Tire B gets a 8.4. Wtf does a .2 difference actually mean? Oh, I see that General G-MAX RS needs 115ft to stop on wet, while Michelin Pilot Sport 4S needs 118ft. And the Yohokama Advens need 132ft?? And a set of G-Max's cost $697? Easy decision here.

So in summary, read the damn reviews and make judgements on what's important to you. If I could guarantee that I could only race on sunny days, I'd probably get the Yokos since my driving skills and car probably aren't pushing the tires to the limits. If i wanted to indulge, I'd get the Pirelli PZeros. I still see no reason to buy the Michelin PS4s at $1100-$1200.

good thread

 

[Dan00Hawk]

So those tirerack reviews were very helpful. I appreciate forum posts, because obviously you all have more experience than me, but objective, numbers driven 3rd party review sites really are the best.

Review 1: Falken Azenis FK510, General G-MAX RS, Sumitomo HTR Z5, Yokohama ADVAN Fleva V701

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=247

Review 2: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, Pirelli P Zero (PZ4), Yokohama ADVAN Apex V601

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=248

I cannot stress enough that I find Wet performance to be very important. These HPDE sessions are rain or shine, and no refunds are given. So if I am out on the track, or driving to the track, and the heavens open up, well tough shit buddy keep on truckin. Also, this stinger is my daily driver and my family sedan. I am more concerned about having fun and not crashing my car than creating a 600hp monster.

As such, it was very helpful that these reviews included not only wet performance, but raw performance. Tire A gets a 8.6, Tire B gets a 8.4. Wtf does a .2 difference actually mean? Oh, I see that General G-MAX RS needs 115ft to stop on wet, while Michelin Pilot Sport 4S needs 118ft. And the Yohokama Advens need 132ft?? And a set of G-Max's cost $697? Easy decision here.

So in summary, read the damn reviews and make judgements on what's important to you. If I could guarantee that I could only race on sunny days, I'd probably get the Yokos since my driving skills and car probably aren't pushing the tires to the limits. If i wanted to indulge, I'd get the Pirelli PZeros. I still see no reason to buy the Michelin PS4s at $1100-$1200.

good thread

For the last 3 summers, I had a set of the General GMAX RS on my VW GTI, and they were very good in both the dry and wet. They are also one of the lightest tires for their respective size compared to other tires on the market. They did get a bit loud as they wore down to about half tread remaining, but it wasn't anything too objectionable to me on a sporty car. For many summer tires, please be aware that it is recommended they not be driven below freezing due to concerns of damaging the tread compound.

 

[Rev_Night]

For the last 3 summers, I had a set of the General GMAX RS on my VW GTI, and they were very good in both the dry and wet. They are also one of the lightest tires for their respective size compared to other tires on the market. They did get a bit loud as they wore down to about half tread remaining, but it wasn't anything too objectionable to me on a sporty car. For many summer tires, please be aware that it is recommended they not be driven below freezing due to concerns of damaging the tread compound.

These tires/stock rims are for track days only, one in Spring and the other in Fall. All other times I will be using my Continental DSW06s all seasons

 

[turboAWD]

Don't forget the actual "driver" ratings (i.e. people reporting back on the tires):

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=MP

PS4 ranks #1/32, PZ4s are 20/32.

Most significant "low" ranking for PZ4 is treadwear - 5.3 to the PS4's 8.3. If the tires wear out twice as fast, are you actually getting a deal? Although, I think some sizes of PZ4 are on sale right now, which might make for a good deal. And if you're really only driving on them twice a year (i.e. 500 miles / year, maybe 1k, including driving to/from the track?), then yeah, treadwear isn't a factor - you'll get to the tire expiry date before you use them up, most likely.

For me, I drive the tires daily (right now) as well, so I want something good ALL the time, which is why I went with the PS4s.

FK510s / GMax are probably almost interchangeable according to the user reviews, so probably go with the better deal / warranty / availability.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=UHP

You might also want to consider the Firehawk, but I have heard it's wet grip isn't as good as some would like.

Note - here: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=235 the FK510 has noticeably better wet stopping distance than the GMax. Tirerack does these tests many times, and the compounds also change over time, so look for the most recent of the tests.. The test you quoted was from 2019, this one was from 2018, so something changed, or they had a hiccup - the stopping distance of 103 ft in 2018 seems very low.