Eibach springs and sways

[Dochidalgo]

In spite of my age, even now I always have driven fast, securely fast if the term is accepted. From my Golf GTI, Pontiac Trans am, to the Maxima SR. I'm used to driving cars with reliable suspension and control in curves, corners and a controlled bounce in speed bumps. So, let me tell you, the performance of the stock suspension of the Stinger disappointed me. It definitely does not have a reliable factory suspension. My personal opinion as a client, not as an expert in suspensions, of course. The Eibach sway bars improved a lot like the springs as well, my Stinger suspension performance. But I regret the lower the car is with the springs.....impractical and risky in the design of the ramps and speed bumps in my country and streets, avenues flooded in rainy days, but an undeniable aesthetic effect (however I hate a low car). So, Mr. Biermann, from a simply client, to a respectable auto designer, I am not agree with you about to drive a "playful" car, to that purpose I had purchased a go kart.

 

[YOWStinger]

I can agree there, I do find that most stock cars sit too high, but I also don't like the "tucked" look of super lowered cars, I prefer a BMW M or Audi RS look to my cars = performance like it came from a factory, understated and clean. I'll always be an Eibach Pro-Kit guy for that, on ever car I've put them on it has always been "just enough", feels like the way it should have come from the factory, and still goes over speed bumps just fine.

 

[Ruturaj]

Albert Biermann said the Stinger is designed with the rear end somewhat "playful". Some drivers look at the 16mm diameter OE rear sway bar and compare it to the Eibach 19mm thickness, and say, "this is how the Stinger should come from the factory in the first place." So the judgment call at Kia was for a bit less buttoned down in the rear, traded for comfort and smoothness in normal driving conditions. Many here are embarking on "abnormal" driving conditions: in other words, corning FAST, to see what the Stinger is made of. I am guilty too.

Then the different opinions enter into it. I drove my car for ten months before getting the rear Eibach sway bar put in. I had the car up to 155 MPH (in a straight line, mind you!) and was impressed with how hunkered down it became on the humps in the highway. This was long before I got the Eibach. Once I had it installed, I tried out a couple of local sections where I had developed a habit of cornering "spiritedly". And I noticed at once that the upgraded rear sway had reduced the amount of subsequent rear end movement considerably. With less sway in the rear, less bounce, I am encouraged to try for faster, which I have been doing. I may go with a front sway bar upgrade too. Maybe. Right now, my car is satisfying me: the compromise between normal driving comfort and available performance handling seems ideal. The last thing I want is to sacrifice the comfort I currently have for a bit more performance capability. So if a front sway bar gave me a bit more buttoned down feel in corners, yet I noticed a stiffer ride, I would not be happy with that.

What did Bierman meant by playful? If oversteer then thicker rear bar adds that. I don't think he meant unstable feel in rear end by playful.

And when it comes to comfort thin locked bar and thick sway bar are apple to oranges (they can be more comfortable than the other in different condition). Locked bar acts as a spring than sway, so adding thicker not locked bar makes car comfortable when going over bump where both wheels move in sync (less resistance).

Your post felt like it contradicts itself.

 

[MerlintheMad]

What did Bierman meant by playful? If oversteer then thicker rear bar adds that. I don't think he meant unstable feel in rear end by playful.

And when it comes to comfort thin locked bar and thick sway bar are apple to oranges (they can be more comfortable than the other in different condition). Locked bar acts as a spring than sway, so adding thicker not locked bar makes car comfortable when going over bump where both wheels move in sync (less resistance).

Your post felt like it contradicts itself.

Sorry about that. I don't know about "comfortable in other conditions". To me a stiffer sway bar could make the ride more harsh or less forgiving. I haven't experienced that. But I have experienced a "tighter rear end". The car does not continue to move/bounce when the road throws the rear end up or out.

Biermann was talking about pushing the car and retaining good handling, even if the rear end does move about some: or in the case of more discriminating/experienced drivers, too much for their liking. The targeted buyers are not the second group if they are expecting the Stinger to behave like a car that is intended to be a street car and track car combined. The Stinger as OEM is not a track car; but it can be fun to drive fast on a track, I have no doubt; since it is a lot of fun to drive fast on open roads. The OEM car is not "unstable" in any sense of the word. An unstable car would not handle at well over 100 MPH. This car does fine. The faster it goes the more buttoned down it gets.

My experience: ten months of stock suspension. No oversteer. If anything, understeer. The stiffer rear bar makes that less. My Nitto Motivo A/S UHP tires had more understeer than the Pilot Sports. I had not experienced any understeer until I put on the Motivos. But then, I should not be expecting the same handling in corners with an A/S tire as a summer tire.

 

[Ruturaj]

Sorry about that. I don't know about "comfortable in other conditions". To me a stiffer sway bar could make the ride more harsh or less forgiving. I haven't experienced that. But I have experienced a "tighter rear end". The car does not continue to move/bounce when the road throws the rear end up or out.

Biermann was talking about pushing the car and retaining good handling, even if the rear end does move about some: or in the case of more discriminating/experienced drivers, too much for their liking. The targeted buyers are not the second group if they are expecting the Stinger to behave like a car that is intended to be a street car and track car combined. The Stinger as OEM is not a track car; but it can be fun to drive fast on a track, I have no doubt; since it is a lot of fun to drive fast on open roads. The OEM car is not "unstable" in any sense of the word. An unstable car would not handle at well over 100 MPH. This car does fine. The faster it goes the more buttoned down it gets.

My experience: ten months of stock suspension. No oversteer. If anything, understeer. The stiffer rear bar makes that less. My Nitto Motivo A/S UHP tires had more understeer than the Pilot Sports. I had not experienced any understeer until I put on the Motivos. But then, I should not be expecting the same handling in corners with an A/S tire as a summer tire.

comfortable than the other in different condition.

If you know how sway bars works, locked sway bar doesn't work that way. It just acts as extra spring.

Assume a scenario where one wheel moves independently then locked thinner sway will allow more movment, when going over bump where both wheels are moving in same direction thicker but unlocked bar will allow more movement. So they act differently in different conditions and will results in different comfort level.

Do you know why they locked the rear sway? Bierman didn't get to design the car from scratch, he got shared platform, so he had to tailor it to his needs.

I still don't get what your point is. Rear end moving side to side and up down are very different thing.

On straight road a stock locked sway stinger will be more planted than unlocked sway, in turns unlocked thicker sway will give more planted feel. That's why I am saying it apples to oranges comparison. But locked sway is tighter/harder springs not actual sway.

Again I was talking about unstable feel in corners, I did not call stinger unstable. I would suggest to understand how sway work and how locked sway is different. Stinger as a car being good or not is irrelevant here, which I would refrain from talking when talking about sways.

 

[MerlintheMad]

If you know how sway bars works, locked sway bar doesn't work that way. It just acts as extra spring.

In all our talking about the Eibach and OE sway bar comparisons, I have not read the term "locked sway bar" until you used it here. I don't know anything about sway and "locked" sway bar differences. I watched the Tork video on the install and resulting difference in how the car feels over the OE sway equipped Stinger. This is ONLY about the rear sway bar by Eibach. It intrigued me, because I had felt the rear end jink out and hop on fast cornering. Would the Eibach reduce that significantly? To me the Eibach feels like it does.

Rear end moving side to side and up down are very different thing.

Okay, whatever you say. Both movements are a lot less since I put in the Eibach rear sway bar, but especially the "bounce" (up and down) tendency when the road pushes up, or when you hit a sudden dip in the surface and come back up. Subsequent vertical movement is a lot less with the Eibach rear sway installed. I feel something like a flick out to the side if the road surface induces this. But I don't think that is any fault in the handling.

Again I was talking about unstable feel in corners, I did not call stinger unstable.

Fair enough. I read that into what you said and was mistaken.

But an unstable feel is not what the test drivers get out of the Stinger. They say that as long as you are not pushing it 10/10ths but getting into a rhythm that the car is totally predictable. That is the opposite of "unstable feeling".
https://www.motortrend.com/news/kia-stinger-gt-2018-best-drivers-car-contender/

 

[Ruturaj]

I have not read the term "locked sway bar" until you used it here. I don't know anything about sway and "locked" sway bar differences.

I assume you are not interested in knowing now as well.

I had felt the rear end jink out and hop on fast cornering.

That's what I called unstable feel in corners.

Okay, whatever you say. Both movements are a lot less since I put in the Eibach rear sway bar, but especially the "bounce" (up and down) tendency when the road pushes up, or when you hit a sudden dip in the surface and come back up. Subsequent vertical movement is a lot less with the Eibach rear sway installed.

Thicker rear sway reduces understeer/increases oversteer, so you can tailor car to you preference or correct understeer. So up and down movement in corners is not playful, oversteer is playful.

But an unstable feel is not what the test drivers get out of the Stinger. They say that as long as you are not pushing it 10/10ths but getting into a rhythm that the car is totally predictable. That is the opposite of "unstable feeling".

It's easy to reach limits of stinger (at least for me). I understand what this car is, that's why I bought it. And that's why I would be installing sways on it.

 

[itguy61]

I have read through this entire thread and wonder if there is a general consensus of just rear or both for the rwd models?

 

[MerlintheMad]

I assume you are not interested in knowing now as well.

I am very interested in knowing the differences between a "sway" and "locked sway". I assume that the Eibach is a locked sway, because you can unbolt the ends and bypass it entirely when you want to track the car and wish to not include the sway bar for some reason.

That's what I called unstable feel in corners.

Ahah. I just considered that part of driving on a lumpy, humpy road. I wasn't blaming the car. It didn't feel like it was going to spin out or ambush me, because it recovered instantly after each "jink". The Eibach makes these little slides less common, because with the rear end buttoned down, the weight stays planted on the tires (instead of hopping/floating up each time you hit an imperfection that tosses the car).

Thicker rear sway reduces understeer/increases oversteer, so you can tailor car to you preference or correct understeer. So up and down movement in corners is not playful, oversteer is playful.

I don't find either movement "playful". So the reduction of hop/float and understeer are both good things to me. (this is the first time I've heard someone describe understeer as playful! )

It's easy to reach limits of stinger (at least for me). I understand what this car is, that's why I bought it. And that's why I would be installing sways on it.

I missed the fact that you haven't done sway bars on the Stinger yet.

The Tork video said that if you are going to do ONE mod, let that be the rear sway, because for the least amount of money and change it delivers the greatest amount of desirable change to the handling. I've certainly found that to be the case.

Not being a "car guy", and therefore not having any previous experience driving a performance car, my sensitivities are very keen. I am literally attacking a learning curve (or curves ) as I learn this car.

One thing I've noticed is that as I accustom myself to what the Stinger can do, it becomes less: less powerful, less daunting, less rapid in acceleration, less planted in cornering. What this means is that I am getting closer over time, and pushing the car, to where you are: "I understand what this car is".

I am learning to understand what this car is too. I am by now quite used to what it feels like when I mash the go peddle; that's why the acceleration feels "less" than it was before: I know what to expect and my body has adjusted to anticipate it. Same with cornering: before, I wouldn't know what pushing closer to the edge of adhesion is going to feel like; now I know to anticipate understeer, and the difference between A/S and summer tires in that regard, as well as noise, and the back end flicking out. Adding the Eibach rear sway bar and lighter rims all around and putting the summer tires back on, added to a year of trying to feel the corners, has resulted in the feel being less "stable", because I am pushing harder. It doesn't feel like it, but the speedo does not lie: before I would be between forty and forty-five MPH on the "skid pad" (270 degree cloverleaf), now I am pushing over 50 MPH to get the same feeling of reaching for the edge of adhesion and understeer. I have lots to learn!

 

[Ruturaj]

I am very interested in knowing the differences between a "sway" and "locked sway". I assume that the Eibach is a locked sway, because you can unbolt the ends and bypass it entirely when you want to track the car and wish to not include the sway bar for some reason.

Ahah. I just considered that part of driving on a lumpy, humpy road. I wasn't blaming the car. It didn't feel like it was going to spin out or ambush me, because it recovered instantly after each "jink". The Eibach makes these little slides less common, because with the rear end buttoned down, the weight stays planted on the tires (instead of hopping/floating up each time you hit an imperfection that tosses the car).

I don't find either movement "playful". So the reduction of hop/float and understeer are both good things to me. (this is the first time I've heard someone describe understeer as playful! )

I missed the fact that you haven't done sway bars on the Stinger yet.

The Tork video said that if you are going to do ONE mod, let that be the rear sway, because for the least amount of money and change it delivers the greatest amount of desirable change to the handling. I've certainly found that to be the case.

Not being a "car guy", and therefore not having any previous experience driving a performance car, my sensitivities are very keen. I am literally attacking a learning curve (or curves ) as I learn this car.

One thing I've noticed is that as I accustom myself to what the Stinger can do, it becomes less: less powerful, less daunting, less rapid in acceleration, less planted in cornering. What this means is that I am getting closer over time, and pushing the car, to where you are: "I understand what this car is".

I am learning to understand what this car is too. I am by now quite used to what it feels like when I mash the go peddle; that's why the acceleration feels "less" than it was before: I know what to expect and my body has adjusted to anticipate it. Same with cornering: before, I wouldn't know what pushing closer to the edge of adhesion is going to feel like; now I know to anticipate understeer, and the difference between A/S and summer tires in that regard, as well as noise, and the back end flicking out. Adding the Eibach rear sway bar and lighter rims all around and putting the summer tires back on, added to a year of trying to feel the corners, has resulted in the feel being less "stable", because I am pushing harder. It doesn't feel like it, but the speedo does not lie: before I would be between forty and forty-five MPH on the "skid pad" (270 degree cloverleaf), now I am pushing over 50 MPH to get the same feeling of reaching for the edge of adhesion and understeer. I have lots to learn!

The stock sways are locked sways, eibach ones are not. Sway is supposed to send motion from one side to another (in corners). Locked sway doesn't do a job of sway bar but acts as an extra spring because it is locked for vertical moment.

Every RWD car will over-steer at some point when given enough power (with no traction and stability control). That's why RWD cars are more fun than FWD.

This is my RWD car, my previous cars were Mitsubishi Galant AT (in US), Hyundai Creta MT (in India), Toyota Liva MT (in India) and Maruti 800 MT (in India). So far I am having blast.

 

[MerlintheMad]

The stock sways are locked sways, eibach ones are not.

Rear sway bar - installation
Other than 16mm vs 19mm, they look the same to me.

Sway is supposed to send motion from one side to another (in corners). Locked sway doesn't do a job of sway bar but acts as an extra spring because it is locked for vertical moment.

I'm not understanding what you said.

 

[Ruturaj]

Rear sway bar - installation
Other than 16mm vs 19mm, they look the same to me.

I'm not understanding what you said.

Sway bar are shaped like [.

When you are in corner you car lifts from one side, so one side goes down and other goes up compared to each other, so your car is twisting the sway bar, and sway bar being made up of metal, oppose the twist. That's why thicker sway bar have more stiffness and are hard to twist. That lessens one corner lifting much more than other.

If you disconnect sway from everything, except their bushing, they will be free to move. If you lift one side (from point where soft and hard setting holes are) the other side would move too without resistance except weight of the bar.

In locked bar the bar stays at single position. So if you try to lift one side it would resist and other won't have any effect on it.

Thought they look same from outside, how they fit in bushing matters.

@SteveCo thank you helpful and positive criticism, you hitting disagree really gave me an idea of which part or whole you disagreed on and why with you reasoning behind it. (I don't care if you disagree with me, I am open to listening and learning if you think I made a wrong assumption, but just hitting disagree feels like trolling).

 

[MerlintheMad]

Though[] they look same from outside, how they fit in bushing matters.

So, the bushings are the difference between OE and Eibach? On another thread, somebody said that the OE sway bar doesn't move. I hadn't heard that before. (I think I have that right.)

 

[YOWStinger]

Both bushings and gauge, and adjustability. The bushings allow rotation and are stiffer and stronger, they’re made to be stiffer and stronger, and also adjustable between soft and hard.

 

[YOWStinger]

Until I’d read the threads here, I’d never heard of a “locked” sway bar. That entirely defeats the purpose.

A sway bar is meant to be a lever, and applies torque to the end links attached to both ends of the sway bar. Movement on one end applies “equal”* torque to the other end of the sway bar. When the spring compresses or decompresses on one end, the sway bar “equally”* compresses or decompresses the spring on the other end, which helps to keep the car flat, preventing one side from compressing and the other side from decompressing.

*Less , because the sway bar is made to twist, which is why we upgrade them to transfer more force, but trying to simplify the explanation.

As others have noted, if the sway bar is locked, it’s essentially useless, if it can’t twist, it provides no function and instead only flexes between the closest bushing and the endlink that connects it to the suspension (making it behave like an odd spring of sorts but only unintentionally). This partly explains why the ass end of the car feels so vague over swales in the middle of a corner, allowing a rocking motion between the rear left and right tires.

 

[itguy61]

Yep I just had my rear done and the bushings on the stock bar seem to be locked down the bar cannot spin inside them. Makes no sense to me.

 

[MerlintheMad]

Yep I just had my rear done and the bushings on the stock bar seem to be locked down the bar cannot spin inside them. Makes no sense to me.

"Had" it done; does that mean that you were told by the installer that the OE sway bar is locked down? How did you find out about this? Nobody said anything to me. Is it possible that the Eibach install could be done so snuggly that their sway bar does not rotate inside their bushings too? Is there a difference in the OE bushings and Eibach bushings, aside from the diameter of the bushings? I thought that the only differences in the bars were the size (16mm vs 19mm, including, of course, the bushings), and the Eibach having "soft" and "stiff" holes on the ends. (Well, and of course the spiff red of the Eibach compared to the boring black of the OE.)

 

[YOWStinger]

I haven’t seen any pics of it taken apart, I’m planning to take mine apart one Eibach gets off its duff and ships them.

Once it’s off, the bushing should spin freely around the bar.

 

[itguy61]

Sway bars are supposed to be able to rotate on the bushings, everyone I have installed has been this way. I am referring to the stock sway bar that I brought home. The whole bar is supposed to be able to twist, with the bushings locked down this is not possible. With them locked the sway bar is essentially just another spring on each side. With the bar not locked down when the rear end hits a bump that is common to both sides it does not effect ride because the bar can just twist inside the bushings which is how it is supposed to work. The installer I used does quite a bit of stuff like that and commented that it made no sense they that the stock bar was this way. That might explain the flaky handling in the rear end with the stock bar.

 

[itguy61]

I haven’t seen any pics of it taken apart, I’m planning to take mine apart one Eibach gets off its duff and ships them.

Once it’s off, the bushing should spin freely around the bar.

They don't on the stock bar. I have mine right here and several others have said the same thing. I will be doing the front soon and see if that is same on the stock bar.