Looking VERY likely that the Stinger will be firmly locked at MSRP

[david norman]

According to this: http://www.kiamedia.com/us/en/models/stinger/2018/documentfile#stinger it does not.



I agree, Kia was the "content" company. Why would you abandon that now for car that is getting positive press? Go "all in" on content, price and driving dynamics.

I listed those numbers to illustrate that Genesis isn't really meeting their goal of siphoning off customers from models they market themselves against (even with a huge price differential). I would like them to take that into consideration when pricing their non-luxury brand Stinger. Go "low enough" with the right content and you might be able to get some family sedan owners to move on up.

Heck, do the same thing with the Genesis brand (re: the G70) and you might be able to outsell the Toyota Avalon .

That sucks that it is not listed. Kia is making a huge mistake showing cars with options not even on the list like the wireless charger 360 camera etc. especially if it doesn’t come with it

 

[FluffyBottoms]

What's even more insulting is that other markets have these features, but at a lower price point than the U.S. market (e.g. Canada).

Kinda feels like we're being asked to subsidize the global market as Kia is looking for higher profit margins here in the U.S.

 

[jbweb7]

even with a huge price differential[/I]). I would like them to take that into consideration when pricing their non-luxury brand Stinger. Go "low enough" with the right content and you might be able to get some family sedan owners to move on up. Heck, do the same thing with the Genesis brand (re: the G70) and you might be able to outsell the Toyota Avalon .

Bamm, you have hit the nail on the head. I became excited about the Kia Stinger because I didn't want a boring sedan. I foolishly expected them to stay true to their history of excellent content and value. I'm hopeful they will correct this after the first wave sits on lots or the get capacity up and margins are better for the 2019 model.

 

[FluffyBottoms]

While I put a deposit down on the GT2 Stinger, the projected MSRP has caused me to reassess other options (it would've been a no-brainer at $48k).

The G80 Sport was once on my list, but the higher than anticipated MSRP ($58k w. AWD) and somewhat negative reviews on the driving dynamics had turned me off. In looking at real world prices now, the G80 Sport AWD with a couple of incentives is actually less expensive that a fully loaded Stinger, and the G80 has more content and complimentary maintenance.

I haven't test driven a G80, but I'm thinking about do so back to back with the Stinger and see which way to go.

 

[Bamm1]

While I put a deposit down on the GT2 Stinger, the projected MSRP has caused me to reassess other options (it would've been a no-brainer at $48k).

Join the club.

The G80 Sport was once on my list, but the higher than anticipated MSRP ($58k w. AWD) and somewhat negative reviews on the driving dynamics had turned me off. In looking at real world prices now, the G80 Sport AWD with a couple of incentives is actually less expensive that a fully loaded Stinger, and the G80 has more content and complimentary maintenance.

I haven't test driven a G80, but I'm thinking about do so back to back with the Stinger and see which way to go.

Lotus did help with suspension tuning for the 2015 model.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014/02/new-hyundai-genesis-tuned-lotus-nurburgring-video.html

I believe there is someone on here that has a G80 Sport with a piggyback unit. Maybe they can chime in on how ownership has been.

 

[ralzod]

I have a question that I haven't seen discussed anywhere. Aside from speculation that general lot sales will be at MSRP, how does a "pre-order" typically affect pricing? Wouldn't that pretty much remove any bargaining power, perhaps similar to ordering any car that isn't available on lots due to unique configuration?

On a similar note, what about just simply getting on a dealer's list of interested customers? Seems like gauging a customer's interest would play a role in negotiations, and getting on any "pre-" lists would reveal your hand.

 

[FluffyBottoms]

Join the club.



Lotus did help with suspension tuning for the 2015 model.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014/02/new-hyundai-genesis-tuned-lotus-nurburgring-video.html

I believe there is someone on here that has a G80 Sport with a piggyback unit. Maybe they can chime in on how ownership has been.

My concern is less about the engine, but the weight it carries and how it handles the extra mass. It's a good 400 - 500 lbs heavier than the Stinger, which is already close to 4000 lbs in AWD guise.

I have a question that I haven't seen discussed anywhere. Aside from speculation that general lot sales will be at MSRP, how does a "pre-order" typically affect pricing? Wouldn't that pretty much remove any bargaining power, perhaps similar to ordering any car that isn't available on lots due to unique configuration?

On a similar note, what about just simply getting on a dealer's list of interested customers? Seems like gauging a customer's interest would play a role in negotiations, and getting on any "pre-" lists would reveal your hand.

To your point, I'm potentially losing leverage in negotiating the price, but I'm securing the options that I want, since inventory will be very limited initially. I requested the GT2 trim with AWD in the follow color combo:

Panthera Metal with Red Interior

Now, if the dealers are mandated to not go below MSRP, there was no leverage for me to lose anyway. But at $50k+, I'm not settling for a color combo I kinda like.

 

[Chris]

Panthera Metal with Red Interior

That's the color combo I'm after too.

 

[zoop]

I think everyone on this forum would agree (I do) with all of the above. But it is simply not translating to sales.
Last month, in the US, the combined sales of every Genesis model was more than doubled by single models from the German competitors (5-series BMW; Mercedes E-class). With the average transaction price being much, much higher for the Germans. Toyota sold ~900 more Avalons in September than Genesis did overall. That is kind of sad.
For Kia to attempt to use the same strategy with the Stinger seems like a mistake to me.

The problem is your expectations for sales are too high. This is a long road for KIA, by all accounts Genesis has been a success, so much so that they have already spun it off as it's own brand. They're not expecting to outsell brands that have been established for 40 years overnight.... Keep in mind that 10 years ago nobody even gave Hyundai or KIA a second thought. What they have accomplished over the past 10 years is nothing short of remarkable. It takes decades to change badge perception and they are well on their way.

I will hold my judgement until someone tests a US-spec 2.0T and/or I drive one. I would also expect people who want a "driver's car" to just pay the extra 2k for the base GT.
The customer base that values "driving dynamics" is way too small to target and expect a sales success. It also has you completing with models you didn't intend to (hot hatches and the like). Also, when it comes to "performance" a lot of your "average" customers measure that in a straight line. For merging, passing, etc.
I actually didn't bring up the Accord et al comparison on this thread. But it aligned with my standing criticism, which is almost exclusively focused on content vs. price. An area where I think Kia has failed pretty badly. The highest trim Accord is $36,675. It has MORE amenities/options than the $50,395 GT2 Stinger. Things like wireless phone charging, heated rear seats, rain-sensing wipers (can get this for 2200 bucks but you have to take AWD too), WiFi HotSpot, advanced 10-speed transmission, remote start, etc. Honda even added a resonator and resin molding to the inside of the wheel rims to reduce road noise by 6bD.
So even if we add the "driver's aid package" to the 2.0T Premium to get all the safety features (most of which are standard on the 23K base Accord) you are still missing everything I listed above plus HUD, adaptive shock absorbers, ventilated front seats, 19-inch wheels, etc. and it will cost you $39,895.
I don't see people paying more money to move up from non-luxury sedans to loose content, fuel economy, better depreciation, etc. and purchase a 2.0T model, even it is more fun on a back road.

By this logic nobody would ever buy a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes either. Compared to an Accord they are generally less well equipped, depreciate more, have higher maintenance, and worse warranties. Why do they do it? Because they are completely different cars, and they have an established brand/image value. KIA doesnt have that brand/image value, that is a given, and if anything they carry a ball and chain in that respect, but you also cannot discount the fact that with the KIA you get aggressive styling which the Toyotas never had and Honda lost back in the late 90s. You also get a 10yr/100k and 5yr/60 warranty vs 5yr/60k and 3yr/36k warranty. If you come at it from the perspective of a family sedan, the KIA loses because like you said feature wise the family sedans win. If you come at it from the perspective of someone who wants more of a sport-luxury sedan but doesnt want to pay the 20k premium for a BMW or Audio, the KIA wins for anyone not hung up on badge. KIA admits they dont expect to sell a ton of these at least not at first but like I said, if they pull 10% of customers away from the other brands with the Stinger and/or G70 that is a success for 2018.

I also don't see German buyers moving down to snag the Stinger GT when one year old CPO models cost the same (while being faster and more fuel efficient). I also get that most luxury car buyers lease. The Stinger GT will likely loose pretty badly on cost there as well.

I totally do. Why do people lease BMWs and Audis? Because they dont want to pay the ridiculous maintenance costs on those cars when the 3 year warranty is up on hugely unreliable vehicles. You cant just focus on the aspects which are better and ignore the reasons people dont buy those cars... have to take it all together.

 

[zoop]

According to this: http://www.kiamedia.com/us/en/models/stinger/2018/documentfile#stinger it does not.

According to this (bottom of the page) it does:
https://www.kia.com/us/en/content/v...-stinger?file=gallery_stinger_2018_interior_1

 

[Bamm1]

The problem is your expectations for sales are too high. This is a long road for KIA, by all accounts Genesis has been a success, so much so that they have already spun it off as it's own brand. They're not expecting to outsell brands that have been established for 40 years overnight.... Keep in mind that 10 years ago nobody even gave Hyundai or KIA a second thought. What they have accomplished over the past 10 years is nothing short of remarkable. It takes decades to change badge perception and they are well on their way.

My expectations align with both Hyundai's and Kia's. You don't fire the US head of sales: https://www.thestreet.com/story/13934400/1/hyundai-fires-dave-zuchowski-ceo-of-u-s-sales-arm.html or hire a new VP of sales for the US: https://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/press_releases/2017/06/30/LA31265, if you think anything is a success.

By this logic nobody would ever buy a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes either. Compared to an Accord they are generally less well equipped, depreciate more, have higher maintenance, and worse warranties. Why do they do it? Because they are completely different cars, and they have an established brand/image value. KIA doesnt have that brand/image value, that is a given, and if anything they carry a ball and chain in that respect, but you also cannot discount the fact that with the KIA you get aggressive styling which the Toyotas never had and Honda lost back in the late 90s. You also get a 10yr/100k and 5yr/60 warranty vs 5yr/60k and 3yr/36k warranty. If you come at it from the perspective of a family sedan, the KIA loses because like you said feature wise the family sedans win. If you come at it from the perspective of someone who wants more of a sport-luxury sedan but doesnt want to pay the 20k premium for a BMW or Audio, the KIA wins for anyone not hung up on badge. KIA admits they dont expect to sell a ton of these at least not at first but like I said, if they pull 10% of customers away from the other brands with the Stinger and/or G70 that is a success for 2018.

Yes, you probably shouldn't buy a new German luxury car. They are also too expensive. Most German cars have better warranties than family sedans (most are 4/50k).

Where did they say they don't expect to sell many Stingers? That seems like a very odd stance to take in light of all sales executive moves in the US.

I think my point was missed. I am not telling anyone to buy an Accord instead of a Stinger, that was someone else. I will try to clarify. The non-luxury brand Honda, of similar overall size to the Stinger, with more options than the GT2, costs $13,700 less than the non-luxury brand Kia. BUT the Canadian Stinger GT2 + AWD Stinger (which at this point appears to have more options) is only ~4 grand more than the Accord. If Honda can hit that price point in the US why can't Kia? They sure had no trouble in Canada.

I totally do. Why do people lease BMWs and Audis? Because they dont want to pay the ridiculous maintenance costs on those cars when the 3 year warranty is up on hugely unreliable vehicles. You cant just focus on the aspects which are better and ignore the reasons people dont buy those cars... have to take it all together.

[/QUOTE]

They all have 4 year warranties. Not all the models are hugely unreliable. I was also ignoring the likely horrible dealer service experience you are going to get along with your lower costs. Things that will likely turn off German car owners. There are also rumors that only "authorized" Stinger dealers will be able to properly service your Kia. So if one of those is 200 miles away, that is going to hit your bottom line if you have to drive that far to get a warranty repair.

I clearly understand the Pros for Kia. That is why I have been here since the early days of this forum. Its always been cost and content, with a similar driving experience to the Germans. They appear to have removed content and priced it way above other markets (like Korea and Canada). When you mess with your Pros, then the Cons for your competitors start to seem a lot less significant.

According to this (bottom of the page) it does:
https://www.kia.com/us/en/content/v...-stinger?file=gallery_stinger_2018_interior_1

The information at the link I posted came after the information at the above link. So it is the most "current" so to speak. But I hope it is just a plain awful marketing team at Kia US and all the missing items reappear at launch.

 

[Kia Stinger]

I agree, Kia was the "content" company. Why would you abandon that now for car that is getting positive press? Go "all in" on content, price and driving dynamics.

I listed those numbers to illustrate that Genesis isn't really meeting their goal of siphoning off customers from models they market themselves against (even with a huge price differential). I would like them to take that into consideration when pricing their non-luxury brand Stinger. Go "low enough" with the right content and you might be able to get some family sedan owners to move on up.

Yeah, one on hand (my bigger hand ) I feel Kia should content the hell out of the Stinger. I mean - I would love that. On the other hand (my smaller hand ), I see why they might not be doing this. I think they're trying to lose the "great deal for a Kia" stigma - and it has to happen somewhere. Some model, at some point in time, is going to end up being less of a great deal and sell on it's own merits. I think the way Kia is seeing this is - the Stinger has enough character to pull that off. More so than any other Kia model. That being said, those knowledgeable people, enthusiasts like us, aren't going to be jumping up and down when we realize we're paying more for less. But most (almost all) people don't see it that way. Most people see a great deal. And that's what's going to allow Kia to pull this off. I might not be happy. You might not be happy. But everybody else will be happy. And that will make Kia happy...

I'm very confident that Genesis isn't planning on any serious conquests from the top tier brands as a sub-brand. Once "Genesis Motors" becomes an official brand with it's own dealerships and it's own better-trained employees - THEN they'll expect conquest sales. For the time being, Genesis being a sub brand is just the beginning and a way for people to gradually move up from Hyundai prices and service - to middle-grade luxury prices and middle-grade luxury service.

The G80 Sport was once on my list, but the higher than anticipated MSRP ($58k w. AWD) and somewhat negative reviews on the driving dynamics had turned me off. In looking at real world prices now, the G80 Sport AWD with a couple of incentives is actually less expensive that a fully loaded Stinger, and the G80 has more content and complimentary maintenance.

I haven't test driven a G80, but I'm thinking about do so back to back with the Stinger and see which way to go.

I'm pretty sure you're going to lean heavily towards the Stinger over the G80 if you drive them both. If driving dynamics is important to you - the Stinger (and the G70) will be the car you're more comfortable with...

 

[hereward]

My expectations align with both Hyundai's and Kia's. You don't fire the US head of sales: https://www.thestreet.com/story/13934400/1/hyundai-fires-dave-zuchowski-ceo-of-u-s-sales-arm.html or hire a new VP of sales for the US: https://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/press_releases/2017/06/30/LA31265, if you think anything is a success.

Yes, you probably shouldn't buy a new German luxury car. They are also too expensive. Most German cars have better warranties than family sedans (most are 4/50k).

Where did they say they don't expect to sell many Stingers? That seems like a very odd stance to take in light of all sales executive moves in the US.

I think my point was missed. I am not telling anyone to buy an Accord instead of a Stinger, that was someone else. I will try to clarify. The non-luxury brand Honda, of similar overall size to the Stinger, with more options than the GT2, costs $13,700 less than the non-luxury brand Kia. BUT the Canadian Stinger GT2 + AWD Stinger (which at this point appears to have more options) is only ~4 grand more than the Accord. If Honda can hit that price point in the US why can't Kia? They sure had no trouble in Canada.

They all have 4 year warranties. Not all the models are hugely unreliable. I was also ignoring the likely horrible dealer service experience you are going to get along with your lower costs. Things that will likely turn off German car owners. There are also rumors that only "authorized" Stinger dealers will be able to properly service your Kia. So if one of those is 200 miles away, that is going to hit your bottom line if you have to drive that far to get a warranty repair.

I clearly understand the Pros for Kia. That is why I have been here since the early days of this forum. Its always been cost and content, with a similar driving experience to the Germans. They appear to have removed content and priced it way above other markets (like Korea and Canada). When you mess with your Pros, then the Cons for your competitors start to seem a lot less significant.



The information at the link I posted came after the information at the above link. So it is the most "current" so to speak. But I hope it is just a plain awful marketing team at Kia US and all the missing items reappear at launch.

The Honda 2.0 Touring at &35,6000 is looking tremendously attractive.

 

[Kia Stinger]

The Honda 2.0 Touring at &35,6000 is looking tremendously attractive.

It's a great car and while I'm the oddball who can't get over that front fascia (not thrilled about the rear either), it IS very impressive with HUD and ventilated seats on top of all the features I have in my 2016 Touring. Again, great car. But it's not going to give you the feeling that you're driving something special. Honda wanted to put more distance between the TLX and Acura after last generation's two models were SO similar. I bought the Accord because it was, in my eyes, an Acura. But hey - that might not be important to you. It isn't for most people...

 

[hereward]

It's a great car and while I'm the oddball who can't get over that front fascia (not thrilled about the rear either), it IS very impressive with HUD and ventilated seats on top of all the features I have in my 2016 Touring. Again, great car. But it's not going to give you the feeling that you're driving something special. Honda wanted to put more distance between the TLX and Acura after last generation's two models were SO similar. I bought the Accord because it was, in my eyes, an Acura. But hey - that might not be important to you. It isn't for most people...

I predict that, as the 2018 Accords roll in by the middle of November, people will see that the only significant positive points about the Stinger could be the RWD handling and the styling (we'll ignore the boy-racer hood scoops which Peter Schreyer conceded to satisfy some baroque taste among the Kia board). Feature for feature and the associated price, and the reputation for reliability, the Accord will prevail over the Stinger. The Kia marketing messaging dysfunction so far and what I've seen at the dealers, are making me uneasy about what the ownership experience would be like.

 

[hereward]

It's a great car and while I'm the oddball who can't get over that front fascia (not thrilled about the rear either), it IS very impressive with HUD and ventilated seats on top of all the features I have in my 2016 Touring. Again, great car. But it's not going to give you the feeling that you're driving something special. Honda wanted to put more distance between the TLX and Acura after last generation's two models were SO similar. I bought the Accord because it was, in my eyes, an Acura. But hey - that might not be important to you. It isn't for most people...

My intended departure from a BMW-mindset to a Stinger was based on the promises of performance, advantageous cost, and lesser post-warranty maintenance costs. I am not expecting bluechip dealer experience from Kia, but geez, can't they get their marketing rollout coherent and smooth? What would take to rollout US-spec cars to selected dealers on a given date? These are items that BMW would handle with panache. One might say these are peripheral issues, but these issues unfortunately have a potential for brand perception, especially when Kia is trying to introduce a game changer.

 

[Kia Stinger]

When you mentioned the only significant points about the Stinger as opposed to the Accord you mentioned RWD handling and styling but you didn't mention the option for AWD (which is important to a great many people) as well as the option of a twin turbo V6 that propels the car to 12.7 second quarter miles. High performance isn't for everybody but that's probably the number one factor that's getting the attention of planet Earth right now. The "powa".

I know dollar for dollar if you want to compare 2.0T to 2.0T they're about even on the power scale but at least the Stinger offers an option to take it a notch higher IF you want to...

 

[Bamm1]

Yeah, one on hand (my bigger hand ) I feel Kia should content the hell out of the Stinger. I mean - I would love that. On the other hand (my smaller hand ), I see why they might not be doing this. I think they're trying to lose the "great deal for a Kia" stigma - and it has to happen somewhere. Some model, at some point in time, is going to end up being less of a great deal and sell on it's own merits. I think the way Kia is seeing this is - the Stinger has enough character to pull that off. More so than any other Kia model. That being said, those knowledgeable people, enthusiasts like us, aren't going to be jumping up and down when we realize we're paying more for less. But most (almost all) people don't see it that way. Most people see a great deal. And that's what's going to allow Kia to pull this off. I might not be happy. You might not be happy. But everybody else will be happy. And that will make Kia happy...

I don't want the Stinger to flop. If it does it is one more step towards a world full of SUV's. But I think I see it going the exact opposite way.

The customer base made up of people like those on this forum may want the cheapest way to get to 12 seconds in the 1/4 mile with 4 doors plus some good driving dynamics on top. Charging the US way more or taking away amenities compared to other countries might be ignored in that pursuit.

The Cadenza and K900 are great deals, but they don't sell well. So maybe driving dynamics and appearance were the missing ingredients for success. So Kia adds them in. But that is where we seem to go off the rails. To have the hubris to think that the driving dymanics and appearance are now so superior that we can simultaneously abandon the cost/content path is a fatal mistake, IMHO. Add the missing ingredients ON TOP of the original formula and you may have had a combination that simply could not be ingnored by a more vast customer base.

I still just see "Joe average" customer seeing Kia and the price tag, then moving on. Even more so now that at 40k for a 2.0T you only get "some" of the options you have come to expect from Kia. This may hold true for the 50k 3.3T as well, depending on how it shakes out. Even if all the options come back, 50k is still a big ask.

I'm very confident that Genesis isn't planning on any serious conquests from the top tier brands as a sub-brand. Once "Genesis Motors" becomes an official brand with it's own dealerships and it's own better-trained employees - THEN they'll expect conquest sales. For the time being, Genesis being a sub brand is just the beginning and a way for people to gradually move up from Hyundai prices and service - to middle-grade luxury prices and middle-grade luxury service.

It is my understanding that they did intend to have conquest buyers at this point. But that failure has lead them to pull up the plan for stand alone Genesis dealers way sooner than they wanted to. It wasn't a "we are happy where are at and will set new expectations when we finally get around to stand alone dealers". It was a "why are we not hitting sales targets?" So they did surveys and found out that the dealer experience not matching the product and its cost (50k G80's next to 20k Elantras and the like) was a big factor. So its time to get a dealer network for the Genesis brand up and running about two years before they wanted to.

Reference: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...merica-wants-separate-genesis-showrooms-asap/

As a side note, that survey result would also seem to not bode well for Stinger sales.

 

[Kia Stinger]

I don't want the Stinger to flop. If it does it is one more step towards a world full of SUV's. But I think I see it going the exact opposite way.

I hear ya. I can't stand driving at such a low height compared to the massive amount of trucks and SUVs on the road nowadays. It makes me want a very tall SUV.

The customer base made up of people like those on this forum may want the cheapest way to get to 12 seconds in the 1/4 mile with 4 doors plus some good driving dynamics on top. Charging the US way more or taking away amenities compared to other countries might be ignored in that pursuit.

Do we have a comprehensive list of features that cost more in America as opposed to other countries? If not, we really should. Would you be interested in getting that started? You definitely know more about it than I do...

The Cadenza and K900 are great deals, but they don't sell well. So maybe driving dynamics and appearance were the missing ingredients for success. So Kia adds them in. But that is where we seem to go off the rails. To have the hubris to think that the driving dymanics and appearance are now so superior that we can simultaneously abandon the cost/content path is a fatal mistake, IMHO. Add the missing ingredients ON TOP of the original formula and you may have had a combination that simply could not be ingnored by a more vast customer base.

That would be great but there must be a good reason for them de-contenting or raising prices for certain features. There just has to be. I imagine the beancounters are involved...

I still just see "Joe average" customer seeing Kia and the price tag, then moving on. Even more so now that at 40k for a 2.0T you only get "some" of the options you have come to expect from Kia. This may hold true for the 50k 3.3T as well, depending on how it shakes out. Even if all the options come back, 50k is still a big ask.



It is my understanding that they did intend to have conquest buyers at this point. But that failure has lead them to pull up the plan for stand alone Genesis dealers way sooner than they wanted to. It wasn't a "we are happy where are at and will set new expectations when we finally get around to stand alone dealers". It was a "why are we not hitting sales targets?" So they did surveys and found out that the dealer experience not matching the product and its cost (50k G80's next to 20k Elantras and the like) was a big factor. So its time to get a dealer network for the Genesis brand up and running about two years before they wanted to.

Reference: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...merica-wants-separate-genesis-showrooms-asap/

As a side note, that survey result would also seem to not bode well for Stinger sales.

I know what you mean but pretty much all of us know that Hyundai's new luxury brand wasn't going to make a substantial dent in any top tier brand's sales performance. They may have wanted conquest sales and even expected more than they're getting - but I can't imagine they're surprised by the results. Service is an extremely big piece of the luxury puzzle and they know very well that they don't have that down yet. They've made improvements but they're not ready for prime time. I know a big reason for the push to separate Genesis dealerships has a LOT to do with service.

 

[Bamm1]

I hear ya. I can't stand driving at such a low height compared to the massive amount of trucks and SUVs on the road nowadays. It makes me want a very tall SUV.

I feel we all may not have a choice some day. All of us in our self driving SUV's.

Do we have a comprehensive list of features that cost more in America as opposed to other countries? If not, we really should. Would you be interested in getting that started? You definitely know more about it than I do...

It is ALL over the place from model to model. So the "options" will all have different values, depending on which models you are talking about. But for a frame of reference for my anger, lets compare pricing for models equipped exactly the same (US vs Canada):

• Cadenza Limited: $7300 more in the US
• K900 V8 Luxury: $5400 more in the US
• Optima SXL: $4100 more in the US

Now we get to the Stinger......

• Stinger GT2 AWD is $11500 more in the US

If they could have added say 8k on top of the Canadian price, I could have lived with the pricing in the US. But to try to be greedy and squeeze that much more out of the US market! Add in possible removal of content and it is even more egregious.

That would be great but there must be a good reason for them de-contenting or raising prices for certain features. There just has to be. I imagine the beancounters are involved...

Yes, they feel they can charge the US unfairly compared to the ROW to pad their bottom line. Hoping the average buyer has no idea how much it costs other places.

I know what you mean but pretty much all of us know that Hyundai's new luxury brand wasn't going to make a substantial dent in any top tier brand's sales performance. They may have wanted conquest sales and even expected more than they're getting - but I can't imagine they're surprised by the results. Service is an extremely big piece of the luxury puzzle and they know very well that they don't have that down yet. They've made improvements but they're not ready for prime time. I know a big reason for the push to separate Genesis dealerships has a LOT to do with service.

I actually think they didn't realize how important it was. It took surveys with that as top rated "issue" for them to finally make a move.