Can someone explain e30 to me

[ihabeeb]

This is my first time jumping into the tuning realm, so I recently purchased a Jb4 along with new spark plugs that are currently in the mail. Just for my future knowledge can someone clarify do I have to mix e85 and 93 to get to e30 for map 3? Or is it possible to just fill my whole tank with e30.
(Might be a dumb question)

 

[DavidinGA]

This is my first time jumping into the tuning realm, so I recently purchased a Jb4 along with new spark plugs that are currently in the mail. Just for my future knowledge can someone clarify do I have to mix e85 and 93 to get to e30 for map 3? Or is it possible to just fill my whole tank with e30.
(Might be a dumb question)

Correct.

I run e30 and I mix 4gals of E85 and the rest 93 (preferably on a very empty tank). All I have is intake, jb4, and plugs and on E30 I run map 5.

 

[ihabeeb]

Okay thanks for the help. I have a similar setup at the moment, I have an exhaust on the way but for now I just have jb4,plugs and a intake.

 

[AYip31]

Get an ethanol tester to truly know what percentage of ethanol is in the E85, they say not all E85 is exactly 85% ethanol.
You can get a $12 test tube or a $200 fuel it kit that installs onto the car and tells you in real time whats percentage is in the tank via an app.
YouTube is your friend.
I go the test tube route and an online ethanol calculator.
For example, if the E85 is truly 85% ethanol. You would need 4.24 gallons of E85 and the rest 93 (11.66 gallons). To get to E30

 

[ihabeeb]

Thanks for the clarification might have to try that out to see the power difference in higher maps

 

[ethan7193]

Correct.

I run e30 and I mix 4gals of E85 and the rest 93 (preferably on a very empty tank). All I have is intake, jb4, and plugs and on E30 I run map 5.

It’s possible to run E85 without any modifications to the engine without damaging your engine?

 

[DavidinGA]

It’s possible to run E85 without any modifications to the engine without damaging your engine?

No, not straight e85. Even with mods the most you should run is around E60 at most.

I've heard rumors of some running straight e85 with supporting fuel mods and ECU tunes, but even if true those aren't gonna run very long that way...

 

[AYip31]

It’s possible to run E85 without any modifications to the engine without damaging your engine?

Stock, No
You would need either an ECU tune or a ECU piggyback tune to run E85 mix.

 

[Volfy]

Technically speaking, the same stock ECU fuel control works the same way regardless of ethanol content. The Lambda (oxygen sensor) feedback value of 1.0 would still indicate the stoichiometric (ideal Air-Fuel Ratio) ratio, regardless of whether the engine is fed E0, E10, E30, or E85.

Fuel Ideal AFR
E0 14.7 Pure gasoline
E30 13.0
E85 9.9
E100 9.0 Pure ethanol

Because of ethanol's lower AFR, the higher the ethanol content, the more fuel has to be fed into the engine for the same amount of air. The problem is the stock fuel system was designed to handle the common fuel blends of E0 to E15; therefore, it can only compensate for additional ethanol content up to a certain point. Above that point, the stock ECU will either run out of fuel trim, or the fuel pump cannot provide enough flow rate at higher engine load & RPM.

The ECU can be retuned for additional fuel trim but that only fixes the first problem. Unless you upgrade to a high-flow HPFP, the engine will still starve of fuel at higher engine load & RPM.

 

[Mo-mo]

Technically speaking, the same stock ECU fuel control works the same way regardless of ethanol content. The Lambda (oxygen sensor) feedback value of 1.0 would still indicate the stoichiometric (ideal Air-Fuel Ratio) ratio, regardless of whether the engine is fed E0, E10, E30, or E85.

Fuel Ideal AFR
E0 14.7 Pure gasoline
E30 13.0
E85 9.9
E100 9.0 Pure ethanol

Because of ethanol's lower AFR, the higher the ethanol content, the more fuel has to be fed into the engine for the same amount of air. The problem is the stock fuel system was designed to handle the common fuel blends of E0 to E15; therefore, it can only compensate for additional ethanol content up to a certain point. Above that point, the stock ECU will either run out of fuel trim, or the fuel pump cannot provide enough flow rate at higher engine load & RPM.

The ECU can be retuned for additional fuel trim but that only fixes the first problem. Unless you upgrade to a high-flow HPFP, the engine will still starve of fuel at higher engine load & RPM.

That is by far the best explanation I've heard for ethanol ratings. Thank you for that.

So anything above E30 you'd need a HPFP upgrade. Does CPI help with this at all (is that spray enough to compensate) or would both be idea? And I'd love to run e85, but I think you'd have to upgrade quite a few things to use it efficiently.

 

[Volfy]

That is by far the best explanation I've heard for ethanol ratings. Thank you for that.

So anything above E30 you'd need a HPFP upgrade. Does CPI help with this at all (is that spray enough to compensate) or would both be idea? And I'd love to run e85, but I think you'd have to upgrade quite a few things to use it efficiently.

I'm pretty sure the limit where an HPFP upgrade is require lies above E30. It's a good threshold to settle on, as it give plenty margin of safety.

CPI helps, because it introduces additional fuel into the combustion chamber, which reduces the demand placed on the stock fuel system. This allows the stock ECU to deal with higher ethanol content.

BTW, an additional benefit of either ethanol or methanol is that both have higher latent heat of evaporation than gasoline. What this means is that when it is sprayed and the atomized droplets evaporate - either in the combustion chamber or the charge pipe - it sucks heat out of the surrounding air, thus lowering the charge temp and allow air-fuel mixture to resist pre-ignition. This, in turn, allows the ECU to advance spark timing to make more power.

Ain't that nice?

 

[GT Elite]

Technically speaking, the same stock ECU fuel control works the same way regardless of ethanol content. The Lambda (oxygen sensor) feedback value of 1.0 would still indicate the stoichiometric (ideal Air-Fuel Ratio) ratio, regardless of whether the engine is fed E0, E10, E30, or E85.

Fuel Ideal AFR
E0 14.7 Pure gasoline
E30 13.0
E85 9.9
E100 9.0 Pure ethanol

Because of ethanol's lower AFR, the higher the ethanol content, the more fuel has to be fed into the engine for the same amount of air. The problem is the stock fuel system was designed to handle the common fuel blends of E0 to E15; therefore, it can only compensate for additional ethanol content up to a certain point. Above that point, the stock ECU will either run out of fuel trim, or the fuel pump cannot provide enough flow rate at higher engine load & RPM.

The ECU can be retuned for additional fuel trim but that only fixes the first problem. Unless you upgrade to a high-flow HPFP, the engine will still starve of fuel at higher engine load & RPM.

If the HPFP needs to be upgraded to run E85, wouldn’t the fuel injectors also need to be upgraded, as I suspect the stock injectors would be at a duty cycle beyond 100%, which is not possible!

 

[Volfy]

If the HPFP needs to be upgraded to run E85, wouldn’t the fuel injectors also need to be upgraded, as I suspect the stock injectors would be at a duty cycle beyond 100%, which is not possible!

You could be correct. I don't have any specs on the injectors.

 

[Mo-mo]

I'm pretty sure the limit where an HPFP upgrade is require lies above E30. It's a good threshold to settle on, as it give plenty margin of safety.

CPI helps, because it introduces additional fuel into the combustion chamber, which reduces the demand placed on the stock fuel system. This allows the stock ECU to deal with higher ethanol content.

BTW, an additional benefit of either ethanol or methanol is that both have higher latent heat of evaporation than gasoline. What this means is that when it is sprayed and the atomized droplets evaporate - either in the combustion chamber or the charge pipe - it sucks heat out of the surrounding air, thus lowering the charge temp and allow air-fuel mixture to resist pre-ignition. This, in turn, allows the ECU to advance spark timing to make more power.

Ain't that nice?

Interesting. I'd also agree with gt, I doubt the stock injectors could run e85 efficiently. Unfortunately our aftermarket support for such things is lacking.

So with a jb4 mapped correctly and cpi I could comfortably run e30 without issue? Sounds like a future purchase. Methanol is also a good route, but I have a 2 year old son who is usually in my car and I believe the tank mounts in the hatch area. Call me paranoid but I'm not running methanol with my kid in the car.

Also, Cpi provides more fuel and lowers temps? Interesting. Now I need to get the bms intercooler and a cpi kit......

After I get the basics, JB4 with all the fixings, intakes and sway bars.

 

[AYip31]

Interesting. I'd also agree with gt, I doubt the stock injectors could run e85 efficiently. Unfortunately our aftermarket support for such things is lacking.

So with a jb4 mapped correctly and cpi I could comfortably run e30 without issue? Sounds like a future purchase. Methanol is also a good route, but I have a 2 year old son who is usually in my car and I believe the tank mounts in the hatch area. Call me paranoid but I'm not running methanol with my kid in the car.

Also, Cpi provides more fuel and lowers temps? Interesting. Now I need to get the bms intercooler and a cpi kit......

After I get the basics, JB4 with all the fixings, intakes and sway bars.

You could run E30 on jb4 without cpi, anything higher would require cpi.
Jb4 E30 would be map 3 or map 4.

 

[Volfy]

Interesting. I'd also agree with gt, I doubt the stock injectors could run e85 efficiently. Unfortunately our aftermarket support for such things is lacking.

So with a jb4 mapped correctly and cpi I could comfortably run e30 without issue? Sounds like a future purchase. Methanol is also a good route, but I have a 2 year old son who is usually in my car and I believe the tank mounts in the hatch area. Call me paranoid but I'm not running methanol with my kid in the car.

Also, Cpi provides more fuel and lowers temps? Interesting. Now I need to get the bms intercooler and a cpi kit......

After I get the basics, JB4 with all the fixings, intakes and sway bars.

CPI isn't necessary to run E30. For that matter, neither is E30 necessary all the time. Heck, I don't even turn on JB4 for general road riding. I'm not into street heroics so Map 0 does fine for me. I only run Map 1 or 2 at AutoX or track day to help the turbo spool up a bit quicker, and I only ever mix in some E85 to raise octane a bit above 93 (maybe E15-20) on very hot Summer weekenda for a little extra insurance against timing retard going all out at the track. For street riding, conditions rarely rise to a level where that is a concern, at least for me.

It's easy to get sucked in to all those tasty mods. Yes, they have their benefits, but it's up to you to weight those benefits vs. the complexity, safety factors, and cost of operations... and most importantly, how you intend to run your car. CPI is geared more towards the guys that likes to go to the drag strip, or occasionally mix it up with the Scatpaks and Mustangs.

You're right to be wary of packing a highly flammable fuel, in a plastic jug, in a crumple zone, next to a honking big lead acid battery, in a family car used to haul your precious cargo. I personally wouldn't do it, but everybody weigh their safety factors differently. Not up to me to tell somebody else how they should manage their risks.

 

[Mo-mo]

CPI isn't necessary to run E30. For that matter, neither is E30 necessary all the time. Heck, I don't even turn on JB4 for general road riding. I'm not into street heroics so Map 0 does fine for me. I only run Map 1 or 2 at AutoX or track day to help the turbo spool up a bit quicker, and I only ever mix in some E85 to raise octane a bit above 93 (maybe E15-20) on very hot Summer weekenda for a little extra insurance against timing retard going all out at the track. For street riding, conditions rarely rise to a level where that is a concern, at least for me.

It's easy to get sucked in to all those tasty mods. Yes, they have their benefits, but it's up to you to weight those benefits vs. the complexity, safety factors, and cost of operations... and most importantly, how you intend to run your car. CPI is geared more towards the guys that likes to go to the drag strip, or occasionally mix it up with the Scatpaks and Mustangs.

You're right to be wary of packing a highly flammable fuel, in a plastic jug, in a crumple zone, next to a honking big lead acid battery, in a family car used to haul your precious cargo. I personally wouldn't do it, but everybody weigh their safety factors differently. Not up to me to tell somebody else how they should manage their risks.

I would be the mustang and scat pack racer. However I rarely see any. Any sporty car I see, nobody wants to play . I just wanna play leap frog on the way home from work. Nice open road, not a danger to anyone. But noooo, I gotta sit in the right lane on cruise control.

I'm not a drag strip kinda guy, but I do like more power. The furthest I'd go is probably CPI. Anything after that would require rebuilt turbos and piping. Although I did see a tasty turbo kit that can support up 900 horsies. But I know that anything after probably 550 would be a massive strain on the transmission and driveline. I'd be comfy with 500-550 wheel horsies. Which I think is doable with my plan. And with the price of 91 near me vs E30, it might be a decent investment.

 

[DavidinGA]

You could run E30 on jb4 without cpi, anything higher would require cpi.
Jb4 E30 would be map 3 or map 4.

I run map 5 without cpi; if your local available fuel is up to par you can do it safely in my experience (logs consistently show it's running strong/safe for me).

 

[AYip31]

I run map 5 without cpi; if your local available fuel is up to par you can do it safely in my experience (logs consistently show it's running strong/safe for me).

True. But I rather stick to what’s recommended by BMS than risk anything.

 

[Thomby]

I also run Map 5 on E30ish (I add about 1.25gal per quarter tank of gas, ie if I'm at half tank I do 2.5gal and the rest 93). I tested my local E85 at about E78, worked my way up through the maps, both reading them myself and posting to the BMS forums, and had healthy timing and A:F numbers across a variety of weather conditions.