All Wheel Drive And Torque Vectoring

[Bamm1]

I have had AWD performance cars for number of years and am most comfortable with their driving dynamics. So if I pull the trigger on a Stinger I will likely get the AWD version. With AWD comes an interesting new feature from Kia (which is described in the quote below):

Recognizing that passionate drivers may not always reside in optimal climates, the Stinger is Kia's first sedan available with rear- or all-wheel drive. Rear-wheel biased for optimal control in the wet or dry, the AWD system features a new Dynamic Torque Vectoring Control system which monitors driver inputs and road conditions and automatically applies power and braking force to the appropriate wheels to maintain course in adverse conditions.

I am looking for this system to be similar to:

• GKN Twinster system (Ford Focus RS, Lincoln MKZ and Lincoln Continental)
• Acura’s SH-AWD (RLX, TLX, etc.)
• Audi’ Sport Differential (S4, S5, etc.)

These systems work like most current “intelligent AWD systems” where power is distributed back and forth, between the front and rear wheels, based on available traction. But they also have the ability to “overdrive” the rear differential sending power from side to side with one rear wheel applying more power to one side. This “pushes” the car through a turn (helping to eliminate understeer). It’s similar to paddling on one side of boat with an oar to get the boat to turn.

Other manufactures (Subaru, VW, etc.) use a “brake based system”. In that case the brake on a single wheel is activated to slow that wheel down and allow the opposite wheel to power “through” and help turn the car (similar to my oar analogy above). This system works pretty well when the rotors and pads are relatively new. However, as they wear down with normal use the “effectiveness” of the system starts to deteriorate. As you approach "replacement level" for the brake components the car can actually become unpredictable.

Based on the description above “automatically applies power and braking force to the appropriate wheels” I am thinking it might be a “brake based” system, which is disappointing. But fingers crossed I am completely wrong.

 

[hej]

Kia has indicated that its torque vectoring system is brake based.

 

[Larry Denen]

It seems like mostly expensive cars have the intelligent AWD system you're looking for. The Ford Focus RS being the exception. But you listed mostly Audi's, Acura's and Lincoln's. Those are typically pretty expensive cars. If we want it all with this Kia isn't that going to drive the price right up to where it doesn't make sense to buy it over a German car?

 

[Bamm1]

It seems like mostly expensive cars have the intelligent AWD system you're looking for. The Ford Focus RS being the exception. But you listed mostly Audi's, Acura's and Lincoln's. Those are typically pretty expensive cars. If we want it all with this Kia isn't that going to drive the price right up to where it doesn't make sense to buy it over a German car?

But Kia is targeting the "very expensive German/Japanese" cars by providing similar (more likely better) content for a much lower price point. Their "plan" is not to remove content (say mechanical torque vectoring) to come in at a lower price.

Various Kia reps have put a "loaded" 3.3T Stinger GT AWD at "under" $50,000. A fully loaded 2017 Acura TLX with SH-AWD comes in at $45,850. That is well under 50 grand and has the feature I was hoping to see. So I don't find my request unrealistic at all.

 

[Spaghetti Sandwich]

But Kia is targeting the "very expensive German/Japanese" cars by providing similar (more likely better) content for a much lower price point. Their "plan" is not to remove content (say mechanical torque vectoring) to come in at a lower price.

Various Kia reps have put a "loaded" 3.3T Stinger GT AWD at "under" $50,000. A fully loaded 2017 Acura TLX with SH-AWD comes in at $45,850. That is well under 50 grand and has the feature I was hoping to see. So I don't find my request unrealistic at all.

I guess you could say they cheaped out in one aspect of the Stinger. I wonder if theyre not making enough of a profit with the intelligent AWD youre talking about. I also wonder how many sales theyll lose as a result of going with a lesser brake based system.

 

[Bamm1]

I guess you could say they cheaped out in one aspect of the Stinger. I wonder if theyre not making enough of a profit with the intelligent AWD youre talking about. I also wonder how many sales theyll lose as a result of going with a lesser brake based system.

The Focus RS comes with it standard. The Acura's also get it automatically when you tick the AWD box. It's optional on the Audi's and Lincoln's on top of AWD. I am not sure if there is take rate information for mechanical torque vectoring option from these manufactures for us to weigh vs. the R&D cost.

Brake based systems still do well in the magazine tests and well in the real world as long as the brakes are new. Look at VW, Subaru, some lower level Audis (S3), etc.

I doubt it's going to make a huge different to the target demographic. Only goofs like me will expend any energy on it,haha.

 

[ballistic]

I doubt it's going to make a huge different to the target demographic. Only goofs like me will expend any energy on it,haha.

hey, without us fanatical people where would we be? there would have never been a lexus, that's for sure.

 

[Egotiator]

The Focus RS comes with it standard. The Acura's also get it automatically when you tick the AWD box. It's optional on the Audi's and Lincoln's on top of AWD. I am not sure if there is take rate information for mechanical torque vectoring option from these manufactures for us to weigh vs. the R&D cost.

Brake based systems still do well in the magazine tests and well in the real world as long as the brakes are new. Look at VW, Subaru, some lower level Audis (S3), etc.

I doubt it's going to make a huge different to the target demographic. Only goofs like me will expend any energy on it,haha.

The 2017 Mazdas have their engine torque based 'G-Vectoring' standard even in their 20k mazda3s. Gosh, i was really hoping this would be like that too.

 

[Kia Stinger]

The 2017 Mazdas have their engine torque based 'G-Vectoring' standard even in their 20k mazda3s. Gosh, i was really hoping this would be like that too.

Welcome aboard! And thank you for signing up. So are you feeling this is a deal breaker for you? How much do you like the Stinger? What would you be replacing if you bought it?

 

[Bamm1]

The 2017 Mazdas have their engine torque based 'G-Vectoring' standard even in their 20k mazda3s. Gosh, i was really hoping this would be like that too.

Mazda's G-vectoring is not actually torque vectoring. Mazda retards spark timing which cuts engine power and results in longitudinal g-force on the front wheels.

The mechanical Ford, Acura, Audi, etc. systems use active yaw control, which is torque vectoring. The brake based systems also fall into this category as they perform a similar function my slowing a wheel (with braking) instead of over-driving a wheel like with the mechanical systems.

The AWD Stingers will have the brake based system.

 

[Chris]

Having driven a Subaru in the snow, if the stinger version is even in the same ball park it will be more than an acceptable solution.

 

[Egotiator]

Welcome aboard! And thank you for signing up. So are you feeling this is a deal breaker for you? How much do you like the Stinger? What would you be replacing if you bought it?

No, still deciding between RWD and AWD. I'm coming from a 2017 Mazda 6. I think the commander switch will be the thing I miss the most.

 

[Egotiator]

Mazda's G-vectoring is not actually torque vectoring. Mazda retards spark timing which cuts engine power and results in longitudinal g-force on the front wheels.

The mechanical Ford, Acura, Audi, etc. systems use active yaw control, which is torque vectoring. The brake based systems also fall into this category as they perform a similar function my slowing a wheel (with braking) instead of over-driving a wheel like with the mechanical systems.

The AWD Stingers will have the brake based system.

Yes not the same. I was saying the system is based on changing engine torque and is called 'g-vectoring', not that it is a torque vectoring system. But thank you, I didn't know that's how it works. Do you think the Kia system's results will be up there with the improved steering control offered by the Mazdas and other brands? It's was definitely a night and day difference for me from the 2016 Mazda6 the doesn't have g-vectoring and the 2017 Mazda6 which do.

 

[Chris]

Yes not the same. I was saying the system is based on changing engine torque and is called 'g-vectoring', not that it is a torque vectoring system. But thank you, I didn't know that's how it works. Do you think the Kia system's results will be up there with the improved steering control offered by the Mazdas and other brands? It's was definitely a night and day difference for me from the 2016 Mazda6 the doesn't have g-vectoring and the 2017 Mazda6 which do.

I would guess it would be way better. All the Mazda system is doing is slowing the car ever so slightly so the weight gets shifted to the front wheels. The stinger is actually pushing torque to the rear outside wheel where it can help push the car around the corner.

 

[CoconutRob]

I'm going with rear wheel drive version. A lot of reviews already stated that the all-wheel-drive system really isn't a performance enhancer. Strictly for areas with bad weather conditions.

 

[Jumpy]

Mazda's G-vectoring is not actually torque vectoring. Mazda retards spark timing which cuts engine power and results in longitudinal g-force on the front wheels.

The mechanical Ford, Acura, Audi, etc. systems use active yaw control, which is torque vectoring. The brake based systems also fall into this category as they perform a similar function my slowing a wheel (with braking) instead of over-driving a wheel like with the mechanical systems.

The AWD Stingers will have the brake based system.

Are you an engineer? Your explanations are very thorough.

 

[Bonburner]

Honestly I think brake vectoring will be good enough .. its a budget GT car without losing out on luxuries. They have to pull money out from somewhere and cutting edge performance is a good place to pull from since its a GT, not a track car.

This means the car will still provide you a good deal of performance, just not the cutting edge race car tech.
Very appropriate decision by Kia.

 

[Bamm1]

Are you an engineer? Your explanations are very thorough.

My apologies, I just saw this post.

I am not an engineer per se but a big chunk of my job involves figuring out why something went wrong and how to prevent it from happening again. So I have to do a lot of "deep dives" into how things work.

Honestly I think brake vectoring will be good enough .. its a budget GT car without losing out on luxuries. They have to pull money out from somewhere and cutting edge performance is a good place to pull from since its a GT, not a track car.

This means the car will still provide you a good deal of performance, just not the cutting edge race car tech.
Very appropriate decision by Kia.

I tend to agree. I wouldn't throw the Stinger into the "don't buy" category because it uses a brake based system.

 

[Jumpy]

My apologies, I just saw this post.

I am not an engineer per se but a big chunk of my job involves figuring out why something went wrong and how to prevent it from happening again. So I have to do a lot of "deep dives" into how things work.



I tend to agree. I wouldn't throw the Stinger into the "don't buy" category because it uses a brake based system.

Cool! What's your job title, Systems Analyst or something like that?

 

[Bamm1]

Cool! What's your job title, Systems Analyst or something like that?

I work in the COE or Center of Excellence. Its sounds much better than it really is, haha.