RWD diff LSD on AWD

[Torrnike]

Hello guys, just got Canadian version gt2 2019 AWD. I wonder, can I install used RWD LSD diff on AWD? The gear ratio is same?

 

[Volfy]

Hello guys, just got Canadian version gt2 2019 AWD. I wonder, can I install used RWD LSD diff on AWD? The gear ratio is same?

You can install the OEM LSD on any Stinger. Since yours is GT2, I assume it has the 3.3T, then the final drive ratio is the same.

 

[Torrnike]

Thanks!

 

[Volfy]

Both our '19 and '23 Stingers have LSD retrofitted. It's not a difficult job but very tedious work. This post shows the '19. LSD = More traction control?

 

[chxei]

Just checking in, hello Georgian

 

[Ruturaj]

It's standard on G70 with pretty much same parts.

 

[Ruturaj]

You can install the OEM LSD on any Stinger. Since yours is GT2, I assume it has the 3.3T, then the final drive ratio is the same.

How do you like it? Does it make significant difference?

 

[Volfy]

How do you like it? Does it make significant difference?

About the only place where the LSD really shines is at the track or the AutoX. That's what it's designed for and why I got them. If I live up north and have to drive in snow/ice, the LSD would help too. Around here, it is rare we run into scenarios with compromised traction. Besides, for that sort of mitigation, when performance driving is not the major concern, the built-in electronic traction control does a pretty good job.

 

[Thomby]

About the only place where the LSD really shines is at the track or the AutoX. That's what it's designed for and why I got them. If I live up north and have to drive in snow/ice, the LSD would help too. Around here, it is rare we run into scenarios with compromised traction. Besides, for that sort of mitigation, when performance driving is not the major concern, the built-in electronic traction control does a pretty good job.

Any difference getting on the throttle coming out of turns? I've had a time or two where I was accelerating out of a low speed turn or turning from a stop sign, not flooring it just somewhat aggressive acceleration before the car was fully straight or in damp conditions, and was surprised to feel power cut.

Maybe it was the drive mode (I'm usually in Smart, meaning Eco-Smart until I stomp on it), but whatever slip from the inside rear would've been momentary, not some wild burnout, so I would've expected the car to first lock up the transfer case and let the fronts try to pull me while the rear regained traction vs. immediately cutting power. And I highly doubt I spun a front too.

Since there's no way both rears are losing traction, I'm thinking an LSD should limit inside rear slippage enough to avoid traction control intervention, but shouldn't my open diff car have mimicked that with brake torque vectoring? Obviously the LSD would give you 3 driven wheels vs. 2/FWD when a rear slips, unless the TC threshold makes that moot...

 

[Volfy]

Any difference getting on the throttle coming out of turns? I've had a time or two where I was accelerating out of a low speed turn or turning from a stop sign, not flooring it just somewhat aggressive acceleration before the car was fully straight or in damp conditions, and was surprised to feel power cut.

Maybe it was the drive mode (I'm usually in Smart, meaning Eco-Smart until I stomp on it), but whatever slip from the inside rear would've been momentary, not some wild burnout, so I would've expected the car to first lock up the transfer case and let the fronts try to pull me while the rear regained traction vs. immediately cutting power. And I highly doubt I spun a front too.

Since there's no way both rears are losing traction, I'm thinking an LSD should limit inside rear slippage enough to avoid traction control intervention, but shouldn't my open diff car have mimicked that with brake torque vectoring? Obviously the LSD would give you 3 driven wheels vs. 2/FWD when a rear slips, unless the TC threshold makes that moot...

I've only driven RWD Stinger/G70, so not sure what the AWD would do exactly.

Stinger's LSD is a mechanical clutch pack type, so it doesn't reach as fast as, say, the eLSD in the Veloster/Elantra N. Electronic TC will ruin the fun before the mechanical LSD has a chance to react. To allow the LSD to function freely, Traction Control has to be turned OFF. Stability Control too. At the track/AutoX, we typically switch both electronic safety nannies OFF. Maybe if it's raining and there are standing water on the track, I might leave stability control ON, just to keep the fun factor from getting too wild.

Accelerating out of a turn - instead of TC simply cutting power - the action of the LSD is a lot more analog. It will allow the driver to modulate rear tires' slip angle with the right foot. With stock suspension and street alignment, Stinger isn't as tail happy as, say, the gen6 Camaro. Still, it will swap ends if you asks for it... intentionally or not. Done right though, LSD does let you roll on the power on corner exit much more deliberately. A bit more front camber and a bit less rear camber help with this, at least with the way we set up our suspension.

 

[Thomby]

Electronic TC will ruin the fun before the mechanical LSD has a chance to react. To allow the LSD to function freely, Traction Control has to be turned OFF. Stability Control too.

So I guess I'm wondering what the point of the LSD is if the TC's threshold to intervene is so low...surely they wouldn't put it there solely for the 1% of the time that 1% of drivers have TC off.

Only thing I can think of is different levels of TC aggressiveness for different drive modes...maybe super conservative in Eco (/Smart-Eco), normal in Comfort, and more hands off in Sport? Any idea?

 

[Volfy]

So I guess I'm wondering what the point of the LSD is if the TC's threshold to intervene is so low...surely they wouldn't put it there solely for the 1% of the time that 1% of drivers have TC off.

I would agree. I think that's why Stinger GT-Lines and most AWD trims have open diffs. LSD is added almost as a performance selling point, but likely rarely used by most drivers.

Only thing I can think of is different levels of TC aggressiveness for different drive modes...maybe super conservative in Eco (/Smart-Eco), normal in Comfort, and more hands off in Sport? Any idea?

Logically, it would make sense TC should be the least intrusive in Sport mode. I honestly dunno how the various modes compare and never tested it. I do know that TC is still very annoying even in Sport mode. We did that when we first started running track and quickly learned to switch it OFF.

On public roads, I just about never drive aggressive enough to activate TC. Even when we did the Tail of the Dragon back in June, we were carving sharp turns and pulling some serious lateral G's, but we don't squeeze the throttle that hard on corner exit. It's just not our thing.

For everyday driving, about the only time TC gets involved is when I'm pulling a U-turn on a clear 6-lane road, with oncoming traffic at a safe distance but fast approaching. That's when it's prudent to cut tight then give it some beans. Even without flooring the loud pedal (and I don't), I can easily feel TC/SC intervening. Maybe I should try that in different driving modes just to see.

 

[Aero_Tech]

As far as I know all Stingers in Canada came AWD with an LSD. We never had the RWD option up here. Are you sure you don't already have an LSD installed? The GT2 is called the GT-Limited up here. The LSD on both the AWD & RWD is the same AFAIK.

 

[LordKOTL]

Any difference getting on the throttle coming out of turns? I've had a time or two where I was accelerating out of a low speed turn or turning from a stop sign, not flooring it just somewhat aggressive acceleration before the car was fully straight or in damp conditions, and was surprised to feel power cut.

Maybe it was the drive mode (I'm usually in Smart, meaning Eco-Smart until I stomp on it), but whatever slip from the inside rear would've been momentary, not some wild burnout, so I would've expected the car to first lock up the transfer case and let the fronts try to pull me while the rear regained traction vs. immediately cutting power. And I highly doubt I spun a front too.

Since there's no way both rears are losing traction, I'm thinking an LSD should limit inside rear slippage enough to avoid traction control intervention, but shouldn't my open diff car have mimicked that with brake torque vectoring? Obviously the LSD would give you 3 driven wheels vs. 2/FWD when a rear slips, unless the TC threshold makes that moot...

I may be mistaken, but it might be an artifact of the brake-based torque vectoring, so if it thought the rear inside tire was slipping, it would have applied the brake to that tire to keep it from spinning (and possibly other tires) which would be working against the car accelerating.

I've noticed it a couple of times at slower speeds: she's a bit sluggish coming out of low-speed turns, but once she straightens out the afterburners come on. It feels like the car is actively trying prevent wheel slippage (even in sport), and at lower speeds and lower gears it's overly conservative. I want to try without TC but Autumn finally arrived here so we probably won't have dry roads here until mid-June, so that's a no-go for me for safety reasons.

 

[Thomby]

I may be mistaken, but it might be an artifact of the brake-based torque vectoring, so if it thought the rear inside tire was slipping, it would have applied the brake to that tire to keep it from spinning (and possibly other tires) which would be working against the car accelerating.

I've noticed it a couple of times at slower speeds: she's a bit sluggish coming out of low-speed turns, but once she straightens out the afterburners come on. It feels like the car is actively trying prevent wheel slippage (even in sport), and at lower speeds and lower gears it's overly conservative. I want to try without TC but Autumn finally arrived here so we probably won't have dry roads here until mid-June, so that's a no-go for me for safety reasons.

I guess it's possible...it's only happened a couple of times and I wasn't driving really aggressively or expecting it so maybe I misread, or maybe the fact that I wasn't flooring it coupled with an aggressive brake intervention made it feel like a power cut.

I guess the test would be to really hammer the throttle and see if it's locking up the transfer case clutches to send power forward even as it tries to reel in one tire's slippage. I would hope the order of operations would be: reroute torque via AWD, brake individual spinning wheel, and only as a last resort cut power.

 

[Volfy]

I may be mistaken, but it might be an artifact of the brake-based torque vectoring, so if it thought the rear inside tire was slipping, it would have applied the brake to that tire to keep it from spinning (and possibly other tires) which would be working against the car accelerating.

You are correct that, in a turn, either (or both) ESC and TC can be active. Depending on whether one or more driven wheel breaks traction, and/or if the car is oversteering (tail swinging wide) or understeering (front end pushing into corner). For the Stinger, both ESC and TC's mitigation method are the same - strategic application of brakes at individual wheel(s) that helps to correct the prevailing problem condition(s).

Just to clarify... Stability Control (ESC) is not concerned with individual wheel/tire slippage. It only intervenes whenever the car's yaw rate (how much its nose is pointing side to side) exceeds the allowable range according to the steering wheel angle, as commanded by the driver. A car can oversteer without any of its driven wheels breaking traction.

Of course, if by "inside rear tire slipping", we are talking about the slip angle of the rear exceeding that of the front, then that is the very definition of OVERSTEER. That is indeed a condition ESC will attempt to rectify. However, the slip angles of both tires on the same axle are exactly the same (disregarding the minor difference due to any toe-in/out). This is because Slip Angle, by definition, means the difference between the direction the wheel is pointing toward vs. the direction the wheel is actually traveling toward.

 

[LordKOTL]

You are correct that, in a turn, either (or both) ESC and TC can be active. Depending on whether one or more driven wheel breaks traction, and/or if the car is oversteering (tail swinging wide) or understeering (front end pushing into corner). For the Stinger, both ESC and TC's mitigation method are the same - strategic application of brakes at individual wheel(s) that helps to correct the prevailing problem condition(s).

Just to clarify... Stability Control (ESC) is not concerned with individual wheel/tire slippage. It only intervenes whenever the car's yaw rate (how much its nose is pointing side to side) exceeds the allowable range according to the steering wheel angle, as commanded by the driver. A car can oversteer without any of its driven wheels breaking traction.

Of course, if by "inside rear tire slipping", we are talking about the slip angle of the rear exceeding that of the front, then that is the very definition of OVERSTEER. That is indeed a condition ESC will attempt to rectify. However, the slip angles of both tires on the same axle are exactly the same (disregarding the minor difference due to any toe-in/out). This is because Slip Angle, by definition, means the difference between the direction the wheel is pointing toward vs. the direction the wheel is actually traveling toward.

I always love the info you bring to the discourse, my good sir.

 

[Maljey]

So I guess I'm wondering what the point of the LSD is if the TC's threshold to intervene is so low...surely they wouldn't put it there solely for the 1% of the time that 1% of drivers have TC off.

Only thing I can think of is different levels of TC aggressiveness for different drive modes...maybe super conservative in Eco (/Smart-Eco), normal in Comfort, and more hands off in Sport? Any idea?

From my understanding, the AWD Stingers (and AWD G70s) with a stock LSD have a hidden/undocumented drift mode where 100% of the power can be routed to the rear. The US AWD Stingers only got stock LSDs in the special Indigo Edition and GTS Edition. Canada has LSD available as an option on their AWD Stingers and those Stinger do have a drift mode, but you need to turn off all the electronic nannies in Sport mode. Same thing with the US AWD G70 cars with LSD.

I dunno if the drift mode has always been a thing, or it was added after a certain model year. Also, I don't believe you can achieve the same results by retroactively adding an LSD to an AWD Stinger.

Take the above info with a grain of salt though. This is just what I've observed from different Stinger/G70 video reviews over the recent years.

 

[Thomby]

Of course, if by "inside rear tire slipping", we are talking about the slip angle of the rear exceeding that of the front, then that is the very definition of OVERSTEER. That is indeed a condition ESC will attempt to rectify. However, the slip angles of both tires on the same axle are exactly the same (disregarding the minor difference due to any toe-in/out). This is because Slip Angle, by definition, means the difference between the direction the wheel is pointing toward vs. the direction the wheel is actually traveling toward.

Not sure I follow this...if both rear tires are spinning while accelerating out of a turn (ie locked/limited slip diff, or just very low overall traction), I'd agree that's oversteer and a yaw difference which I guess means ESC would intervene.

But if you accelerate out of a turn with an open diff, you'll often just do a "one wheel peel" with the inside tire while the outside and both fronts maintain traction, ie no oversteer (same deal in an open-diff FWD car just up front). Wouldn't the car consider that a single tire traction issue, not a stability/yaw issue, and try to limit slip via brake?

 

[Volfy]

Not sure I follow this...if both rear tires are spinning while accelerating out of a turn (ie locked/limited slip diff, or just very low overall traction), I'd agree that's oversteer and a yaw difference which I guess means ESC would intervene.

But if you accelerate out of a turn with an open diff, you'll often just do a "one wheel peel" with the inside tire while the outside and both fronts maintain traction, ie no oversteer (same deal in an open-diff FWD car just up front). Wouldn't the car consider that a single tire traction issue, not a stability/yaw issue, and try to limit slip via brake?

Yes. In that case, TC is the one that detects wheel spin and applies brakes to that corner.

I was simply describing how ESC could also intervene. Not saying that is more likely to happen powering out of a turn.